Proposal for termination from a federal agency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He should be able to get access to all of the evidence they intend to introduce at the termination hearing. Do that, see what they have on him. One thing I've learned is that unfortunately people lie.

pp here. They refused to provide me with any evidence. I also caught them in lies that I pointed out to them. None of it made a difference in the outcome.

A security clearance is different than timecard fraud. The government has a lot more leeway in denying a security clearance.

OP, he should definitely retain an attorney. The knives are out here. They are digging up records from almost two years ago and the allegation is that he was "unproductive." He's pissed someone off.

I'm not OP.
No, Op said there has already been a year long investigation. So the allegations came about a year later (maybe? Depends on the month.)
Regardless, a year long investigation tells me they are making sure the evidence is solid and not doing this in haste.

So many people "work from home" but are dropping kids off at school, walking the dog, meeting a friend for lunch, etc. and it sounds like employers are starting to crack down.

Year-long may not mean that much due to planning /vacation /FMLA /attrition /scheduling /upper management, HR, legal review delays. The actual work probably took a total of 2-3 months, if that.

[Anonymous]

I think for anyone to give you advice about whether your DH is correct about the outcome, we need more details about the allegations. Is it something egregious like he went on vacation for a week he claimed to be working (zero emails, zero logins, etc)? Or is it that they are saying he doesn't have sufficient evidence of productivity during a particular period to support an 8 hour workday? What sort of job does he have? Are there specific deliverables or is it squishier? Is there a system where he's supposed to keep track of what he's doing?

[Anonymous]

Will resigning before termination help him?

[Anonymous]

Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

[Anonymous]

His union should be able to get this overturned or at least mitigated if this is all that is going on. I work in this very space and have seen this before many times. Timecard fraud is a big deal.

Have the union work on the response but also consider getting an attorney if the final decision for removal is eventually issued. Your DH can either file a grievance or go MSPB (or another forum if you think this action was taking for a discriminatory reason, which sounds unlikely), but he can't do both. If he files a grievance and if the union does not intend to pursue it all the way to arbitration, he will be SOL.

[Anonymous]

https://www.gelawyer.com/

[Anonymous]

Sucks for you, but I'm glad that things are getting looked into for this. Being a taxpayer and all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sucks for you, but I'm glad that things are getting looked into for this. Being a taxpayer and all.

You should know that fed workers get fired for absolutely BS non-reasons. It’s far from always a legitimate thing. Trust me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

Damn, that's wild!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a fed and, since Covid, I've sent a weekly email to my boss, outlining the things I worked on for the week...so I can easily go back and find all of them.

Does DH have this, or any other evidence of work accomplished during that period?

But yes, an employment lawyer would help.

Very few people have that, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP there is good advice on specifics above but bluntly something bigger is going on.

I am a fed and it's very rare for someone to be investigated for time and attendance fraud. Usually it's the way that they try to get rid of someone after they have already decided they want to terminate the person (but subjective criteria like performance are harder to prove). Plenty of people cut corners and no one is tracking their keystrokes. If you are basically a good employee getting work done, no one wants to fire you. You have to be a very low performer or non-performer or something else going on, for an investigation to be started.

You might know more and not want to share it here, totally fair. But I hope your DH is being forthcoming about what's actually at play here.

This. I went about three (3) rounds with my husband's employer before they were successful in terminating him. He suffered severe cognitive decline after about 15-18 years of good service. They exploited his challenges with timeframes and manner of response because not complying with them would lead to termination with him never mounting any real defense. However, once I got ahold of their evidence, etc. - they were not able to make anything stick. The last one they used 'fraud' or something like OP mentions where he submitted the same information for several months on a status report (again, easiest with the memory issues), but they laid a trap of sorts of where it would not have been possible to do some of the tasks over months and therefore must have been lying. It was crazy. Put up a fight (even without a lawyer) and chances are they will back off. But I would have a candid and clear conversation with your spouse about what's happening there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

But that's not what this post is about???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

But that's not what this post is about???

It is about the termination process for a fed employee, though. People need to realize the feds can get away with murder. These agencies can be downright cruel.