Proposal for termination from a federal agency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seeking some advice from anyone that may have experienced something similar…

My husband works for a fed agency and was recently investigated for time theft…it was for a period of about 6 weeks at the end of 2022 where they are claiming he billed time that was wasn’t worked.
After a year long investigation they are now proposing termination. He claims he was working during that timeframe but the proposal outlines all the dates and times he was unproductive.

He has 2 weeks to respond. He is hoping the union will be able to help him clear his name and thinks he will be able to successfully appeal it…

Has anyone ever gone through something like this and had it overturned? I have suggested that he get an employment attorney to help navigate this but he is pretty adamant that they are wrong and he will be fine…if that was the case then they would not have proposed this to begin with!

The whole situation is so frustrating and I don’t even know what to do…if anyone has a referral for an attorney that specialize in this type of thing that would be helpful too!!


Was he actually at work on the days in question and they are just saying he did not do enough work?

[Anonymous]

This sounds odd- usually T &A fraud is cut and dry. I think there are missing parts to this story. I have almost 29 years as a federal manager and honestly it is very difficult to fire someone. If they are proposing termination the employee probably deserves it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP there is good advice on specifics above but bluntly something bigger is going on.

I am a fed and it's very rare for someone to be investigated for time and attendance fraud. Usually it's the way that they try to get rid of someone after they have already decided they want to terminate the person (but subjective criteria like performance are harder to prove). Plenty of people cut corners and no one is tracking their keystrokes. If you are basically a good employee getting work done, no one wants to fire you. You have to be a very low performer or non-performer or something else going on, for an investigation to be started.

You might know more and not want to share it here, totally fair. But I hope your DH is being forthcoming about what's actually at play here.

This. I went about three (3) rounds with my husband's employer before they were successful in terminating him. He suffered severe cognitive decline after about 15-18 years of good service. They exploited his challenges with timeframes and manner of response because not complying with them would lead to termination with him never mounting any real defense. However, once I got ahold of their evidence, etc. - they were not able to make anything stick. The last one they used 'fraud' or something like OP mentions where he submitted the same information for several months on a status report (again, easiest with the memory issues), but they laid a trap of sorts of where it would not have been possible to do some of the tasks over months and therefore must have been lying. It was crazy. Put up a fight (even without a lawyer) and chances are they will back off. But I would have a candid and clear conversation with your spouse about what's happening there.

While I have so much sympathy for someone with cognitive decline, we aren’t a jobs program. No reasonable accommodations means that the work or deadlines needs to be made easier due to a disability. I know someone who had a major health issue who was terminated. At the end of the day, he couldn’t do the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a fed and, since Covid, I've sent a weekly email to my boss, outlining the things I worked on for the week...so I can easily go back and find all of them.

Does DH have this, or any other evidence of work accomplished during that period?

But yes, an employment lawyer would help.

Very few people have that, PP.

NP here, I do this too and if you have a desk job, it is a really good practice even if your boss doesn't require it. You can email your own work account if it would be weird to email your boss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a fed and, since Covid, I've sent a weekly email to my boss, outlining the things I worked on for the week...so I can easily go back and find all of them.

Does DH have this, or any other evidence of work accomplished during that period?

But yes, an employment lawyer would help.

Very few people have that, PP.

NP here, I do this too and if you have a desk job, it is a really good practice even if your boss doesn't require it. You can email your own work account if it would be weird to email your boss.

That’s dumb. The emails could easily be lies, especially since they are from/to the same person. If I email myself that I invented a foulproof plan for Mideast peace this week, that doesn’t make it so. And someone willing to commit time fraud egregious enough to be caught would be willing to lie in an email to himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
While I have so much sympathy for someone with cognitive decline, we aren’t a jobs program. No reasonable accommodations means that the work or deadlines needs to be made easier due to a disability. I know someone who had a major health issue who was terminated. At the end of the day, he couldn’t do the work.

LOL to bolded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This sounds odd- usually T &A fraud is cut and dry. I think there are missing parts to this story. I have almost 29 years as a federal manager and honestly it is very difficult to fire someone. If they are proposing termination the employee probably deserves it.

I know for a fact that people do not always deserve it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They must really have it out for him if they went back to 2022. I'm curious how it came up. Your husband has been given a proposed "adverse action." You need to read about the process: https://www.mspb.gov/studies/adverse_action_report/3_AdverseActionProcess_flowchart.htm

The agency will provide him with a written case that lays out the allegations and evidence. The case will be written in such a way to address the twelve Douglas Factors. The case is written by one member of the management team for the "deciding official" to make a determination - usually a division director or deputy director. To jump straight to termination recommendation is very serious. They are not even recommending suspension without pay, which means they think they have a very solid case.

I suspect your husband has been placed on administrative leave and is not going into the office. He's also likely locked out of email and federal systems (like timesheet/payroll), which makes it more difficult to mount a defense and collect evidence. You also need to realize that your husband may not be telling you the whole truth; he's putting the best possible spin on it.

Your husband will have 10-15 business days to review the case and consult with counsel. Then the agency's "deciding official" will hold a hearing with your husband, his counsel (if any) and the officials who proposed termination. Your husband can introduce evidence, request access to evidence, explain why this may be a mistake/misunderstanding, argue that the management officials have not met the Douglas Factors, and/or argue why termination is not appropriate (instead of suspension and restitution). If the deciding official deems termination to be the proper course of action, then it's official and your husband would need to appeal to Merit System Protection Board. However, once a case goes to the MSPB it becomes a public record and your husband's name will be on the Internet.
 
Often an agency will offer to allow a person to resign subject to a settlement agreement prior to going before the deciding official. This avoids a termination on his SF-50, which will help ensure future employment prospects with both the federal government and private sector. Of course, your husband gives up the right to sue the agency. If he decides to go the route of settlement and resignation, he should get absolute clarity from HR on how his SF-50 will be coded for his resignation. Highly recommend reading up on Clean Record Settlement Agreements: https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Clean_Record_Settlement_Agreements_and_the_Law_938820.pdf

In addition to contacting a lawyer, I can also recommend these folks who often serve as expert witnesses hired by employment lawyers: https://informedfed.com/

Good luck with your case. I know this is all stressful and probably not what you want to hear.

I am not OP but I learned a lot from your response. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a fed and, since Covid, I've sent a weekly email to my boss, outlining the things I worked on for the week...so I can easily go back and find all of them.

Does DH have this, or any other evidence of work accomplished during that period?

But yes, an employment lawyer would help.

Very few people have that, PP.

NP here, I do this too and if you have a desk job, it is a really good practice even if your boss doesn't require it. You can email your own work account if it would be weird to email your boss.

That’s dumb. The emails could easily be lies, especially since they are from/to the same person. If I email myself that I invented a foulproof plan for Mideast peace this week, that doesn’t make it so. And someone willing to commit time fraud egregious enough to be caught would be willing to lie in an email to himself.

Why not just do actual work instead and have a track record of that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

Interesting re. Security Clearances. I’ve been a background check person several times over the years (they call me and ask questions about the person getting clearance) and for the past few years they have a blanket statement at the beginning saying everything I relate can be accessible to the person getting a clearance. As a result I end up choosing my words very carefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

Interesting re. Security Clearances. I’ve been a background check person several times over the years (they call me and ask questions about the person getting clearance) and for the past few years they have a blanket statement at the beginning saying everything I relate can be accessible to the person getting a clearance. As a result I end up choosing my words very carefully.

As far as I know, you can always FOIA your background investigation file. I have mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your husband is lying to you. Time theft is very easy to prove. They will have multiple people look over it as well. You will not get to see all the evidence, but rest assured, it's there.

He likely has extremely poor work product and this is what they can fire him for instead. At home is your DH a super hard worker who is consistently on time? I doubt it.

Lastly, I saw a case of sexual harassment that was pretty egregious. The wife came after me at a restaurant several weeks later and told me how outrageous it was that her dh was fired for time fraud. I didn't say a word, but time fraud wasn't even investigated. He'd lied to his wife completely.

That part isn't true, they have to provide in advance all of the evidence that they intend to introduce at the hearing. Whatever else there is isn't really that relevant other than I suppose her DH will have a target on his back going forward if the proposed termination does not succeed. It is also possible her DH is lying to her, she will probably never know if that is the case unless the hearing is virtual and she observes.

This is not true with failed security reinvestigations. They are not obligated to provide any of the evidence to the employee or to the people making the personnel decision.

Interesting re. Security Clearances. I’ve been a background check person several times over the years (they call me and ask questions about the person getting clearance) and for the past few years they have a blanket statement at the beginning saying everything I relate can be accessible to the person getting a clearance. As a result I end up choosing my words very carefully.

As far as I know, you can always FOIA your background investigation file. I have mine.

Yep, me too. I think PP is talking about the decision of the adjudicator. Maybe one person says you're a corrupt AH and everyone else says you're great. I don't think you're going to get information on how the adjudicator weighed the testimony of each person they interviewed.

[Anonymous]

It’s crazy that some posters are blaming the agency because you have to be a pretty bad employee to get fired from the federal government. No sympathies here. It more like, it’s been a long time coming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s crazy that some posters are blaming the agency because you have to be a pretty bad employee to get fired from the federal government. No sympathies here. It more like, it’s been a long time coming.

You can also run afoul of the wrong supervisor or team leader all while being a solid employee. It's shocking how territorial and spiteful some employees become, and once they get an ounce of power, they start raining it down on everyone they can. I've seen the belly of the snake and it isn't pretty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s crazy that some posters are blaming the agency because you have to be a pretty bad employee to get fired from the federal government. No sympathies here. It more like, it’s been a long time coming.

You can also run afoul of the wrong supervisor or team leader all while being a solid employee. It's shocking how territorial and spiteful some employees become, and once they get an ounce of power, they start raining it down on everyone they can. I've seen the belly of the snake and it isn't pretty.

Amen to this. There are some monstrous jackals out there.