Michigan LSA - easier to get in than Ross?

[Anonymous]

I am suspicious of big schools with heavy app loads reading these long applications.

Michigan has hundreds of external readers, many in their first year of reading. I tried to look up their hiring patterns a month ago to find they were hiring people in September for this cycle.

I would argue many of us work in business. I've spent more than 30 years in tech, with decade-long stints at Microsoft and Google both and some time in start ups. I dont know about ridiculous intellectual exercises - that's not the first thing that comes to mind about my job. We value communication skills, deliverable results, creative problem solving, forecasting, predictable outcomes, things like that.


If you looked at the apps of the kids who didn't get into Ross, you wouldn't learn what not to do. If you gave the same apps to the same team, but shuffled the files between the readers, you wouldn't get even close to the same results.

It's kind of madness the way colleges do this. I suspect AI will help a lot. They'll use data on past performance of kids coming from your area, your school, with not only grades but leadership in club xyz or grades by teacher. It will get better.

But right now, it's 3/4 application data and 1/4 vibes, man. And as such, I think you have to tell your teen, do your best, but put a clear limit on how much time you'll spend on this .. you don't want to spend all your time on this app to the detriment of your others. Traffic all your work the smartest way: if you have 3 videos to do for your applications, prepare for them and then shoot them at once. If you have 5 essays across all your applications that touch on similar themes, that's the one to workshop with your teacher.

And then let go and let god. Which is not a business thing to do, but this isn't a repeatable, quantitative process. It's holistic which is another way of saying bullshitty. There are a million roads, especially for business, and you'll be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am suspicious of big schools with heavy app loads reading these long applications.

Michigan has hundreds of external readers, many in their first year of reading. I tried to look up their hiring patterns a month ago to find they were hiring people in September for this cycle.

I would argue many of us work in business. I've spent more than 30 years in tech, with decade-long stints at Microsoft and Google both and some time in start ups. I dont know about ridiculous intellectual exercises - that's not the first thing that comes to mind about my job. We value communication skills, deliverable results, creative problem solving, forecasting, predictable outcomes, things like that.


If you looked at the apps of the kids who didn't get into Ross, you wouldn't learn what not to do. If you gave the same apps to the same team, but shuffled the files between the readers, you wouldn't get even close to the same results.

It's kind of madness the way colleges do this. I suspect AI will help a lot. They'll use data on past performance of kids coming from your area, your school, with not only grades but leadership in club xyz or grades by teacher. It will get better.

But right now, it's 3/4 application data and 1/4 vibes, man. And as such, I think you have to tell your teen, do your best, but put a clear limit on how much time you'll spend on this .. you don't want to spend all your time on this app to the detriment of your others. Traffic all your work the smartest way: if you have 3 videos to do for your applications, prepare for them and then shoot them at once. If you have 5 essays across all your applications that touch on similar themes, that's the one to workshop with your teacher.

And then let go and let god. Which is not a business thing to do, but this isn't a repeatable, quantitative process. It's holistic which is another way of saying bullshitty. There are a million roads, especially for business, and you'll be fine.

Suspicious? No one is putting a gun to an applicants head to force them to fill out an application. If you don’t want to put the time and effort in to go to Ross, then it obviously isn’t for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am suspicious of big schools with heavy app loads reading these long applications.

Michigan has hundreds of external readers, many in their first year of reading. I tried to look up their hiring patterns a month ago to find they were hiring people in September for this cycle.

I would argue many of us work in business. I've spent more than 30 years in tech, with decade-long stints at Microsoft and Google both and some time in start ups. I dont know about ridiculous intellectual exercises - that's not the first thing that comes to mind about my job. We value communication skills, deliverable results, creative problem solving, forecasting, predictable outcomes, things like that.


If you looked at the apps of the kids who didn't get into Ross, you wouldn't learn what not to do. If you gave the same apps to the same team, but shuffled the files between the readers, you wouldn't get even close to the same results.

It's kind of madness the way colleges do this. I suspect AI will help a lot. They'll use data on past performance of kids coming from your area, your school, with not only grades but leadership in club xyz or grades by teacher. It will get better.

But right now, it's 3/4 application data and 1/4 vibes, man. And as such, I think you have to tell your teen, do your best, but put a clear limit on how much time you'll spend on this .. you don't want to spend all your time on this app to the detriment of your others. Traffic all your work the smartest way: if you have 3 videos to do for your applications, prepare for them and then shoot them at once. If you have 5 essays across all your applications that touch on similar themes, that's the one to workshop with your teacher.

And then let go and let god. Which is not a business thing to do, but this isn't a repeatable, quantitative process. It's holistic which is another way of saying bullshitty. There are a million roads, especially for business, and you'll be fine.

I'm not near this sort of thing these days, so I can't speak to current practice, but didn't consulting firms -- the kind of places many students at top-tier business schools interview -- use to love questions of the type "Next, could you please tell me the number of golf balls sold annually in Idaho?"

So they want to hear you reason/speculate your way through (likely making up bogus statistics along the way). "Well, the population of Idaho is roughly x, and there are likely y golf players (in various socio/econo/demographic categories, which we can discuss), and z golf courses. While some players might buy golf balls in advance online, typically balls are sold at sporting goods centers or shops at the course. Typically a player goes through pqrst balls a year, etc. So I'd estimate lmnop as the annual number of golf ball sales in Idaho."

Ridiculous intellectual exercise or useful, predictable tool for screening candidates?

(Equivalent of whiteboarding algorithms at tech interviews?)

[Anonymous]

Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am suspicious of big schools with heavy app loads reading these long applications.

Michigan has hundreds of external readers, many in their first year of reading. I tried to look up their hiring patterns a month ago to find they were hiring people in September for this cycle.

I would argue many of us work in business. I've spent more than 30 years in tech, with decade-long stints at Microsoft and Google both and some time in start ups. I dont know about ridiculous intellectual exercises - that's not the first thing that comes to mind about my job. We value communication skills, deliverable results, creative problem solving, forecasting, predictable outcomes, things like that.


If you looked at the apps of the kids who didn't get into Ross, you wouldn't learn what not to do. If you gave the same apps to the same team, but shuffled the files between the readers, you wouldn't get even close to the same results.

It's kind of madness the way colleges do this. I suspect AI will help a lot. They'll use data on past performance of kids coming from your area, your school, with not only grades but leadership in club xyz or grades by teacher. It will get better.

But right now, it's 3/4 application data and 1/4 vibes, man. And as such, I think you have to tell your teen, do your best, but put a clear limit on how much time you'll spend on this .. you don't want to spend all your time on this app to the detriment of your others. Traffic all your work the smartest way: if you have 3 videos to do for your applications, prepare for them and then shoot them at once. If you have 5 essays across all your applications that touch on similar themes, that's the one to workshop with your teacher.

And then let go and let god. Which is not a business thing to do, but this isn't a repeatable, quantitative process. It's holistic which is another way of saying bullshitty. There are a million roads, especially for business, and you'll be fine.

I'm not near this sort of thing these days, so I can't speak to current practice, but didn't consulting firms -- the kind of places many students at top-tier business schools interview -- use to love questions of the type "Next, could you please tell me the number of golf balls sold annually in Idaho?"

So they want to hear you reason/speculate your way through (likely making up bogus statistics along the way). "Well, the population of Idaho is roughly x, and there are likely y golf players (in various socio/econo/demographic categories, which we can discuss), and z golf courses. While some players might buy golf balls in advance online, typically balls are sold at sporting goods centers or shops at the course. Typically a player goes through pqrst balls a year, etc. So I'd estimate lmnop as the annual number of golf ball sales in Idaho."

Ridiculous intellectual exercise or useful, predictable tool for screening candidates?

(Equivalent of whiteboarding algorithms at tech interviews?)

PP...Michigan person again. I considered consulting as a career but decided to go straight to work at a corporation (which a lot of young MBA consultants actually do after they get up-or-outed on the principal track in 3-5 years).

That's partly because of my negative reaction to the b.s. consulting interviews and also to some skepticism I had from work experiences.

The reason I called these things "ridiculous intellectual exercises" is because their premises are often ridiculous, there is no opportunity to see how the candidate would deploy factual resources, and you are being assessed heavily on your believability as you talk. That makes it less like a coding interview and more like a beauty pageant. If you aren't familiar, it's really an interpersonal stress test about how to seem credible and convincing when you actually have little relevant knowledge. I think even fake algorithm coding exercises are more real than that.

Let me give you an example. I did a practice case interview with Booz. I got a case question that I knew something about. The interviewer will answer whatever questions you want (briefly). Then you deliver an analysis. So since I had mental estimates for about 60% of the assumptions I'd need, I only asked the questions I needed to know to provide an analysis and summarize the issues. We proceeded. I gave a full, detailed analysis and a summary. Then he gave me feedback. He said my analysis and summary were excellent. Then he dropped the bombs:

Some of the feedback:

-I didn't understand why you asked the questions you did, in the order that you asked them.

-You need to make the client feel that your inquiries are logically structured.

-Remember that consulting is a selling process.

I understood what he was trying to say. He was on point. But I didn't and don't want to earn money wasting time collecting fresh data to replace what I already have, can look up, or can approximate. I want to get to the end result as I see fit, not apply a trademarked consultative process model...first we do a scoping meeting, then we do a focus group, then we do 1:1s with key leaders, then we take company data, reanalyze it, take the best employee recommendations and check to see if it works, then present to leaders for political acceptability, then rework, then create a report, blah blah blah.

In my post-B-school life, I've been exposed to McKinsey and BCG projects and lots of non-brand name consulting (strategy/marketing/product dev/process change so somewhat soft stuff). Mostly zero long-term value add. All relationship sell. The juniors are green and most don't stick around long enough to determine the truth about value add. The long-term employees keep score. Occasionally the corp decides to go cold turkey on external consulting (because of cost). Then they hire former consultants in for 2-3 years until that crew proves they can't incubate valuable new businesses because their skillset is glamorous analysis and repackaging of other people's work.

Back to Ross essay about an object that represents you. That's going to show creativity, writing skill, persuasive skill, likability, etc. However it is kind of odd in another context. Adults don't go around imagining this kind of thing in their normal business doings. "If I were an animal, what animal would I be" kind of nonsense is at best awkward icebreaker crap to grownups. That's why normal people are in disbelief over this kind of application question. Just relax and get it written. There are no wrong answers, just cool and uncool ones.

Good luck all! I may someday be seeing some of your kids on their first consulting engagement. I promise I'll keep a straight face and do my best to answer their questions, however they choose to structure them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

This happened in the last 15 years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

This happened in the last 15 years?

Just Google case interview whiteboard practice free.

It has started to go virtual too...

https://www.preplounge.com/en/consulting-forum/using-zoom-whiteboard-for-case-interview-8491

[Anonymous]

I wish more viewers would see this thread. Very valuable info being shared here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

This happened in the last 15 years?

Just Google case interview whiteboard practice free.

It has started to go virtual too...

https://www.preplounge.com/en/consulting-forum/using-zoom-whiteboard-for-case-interview-8491

you're linking a page about covid era zoom practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

This happened in the last 15 years?

Just Google case interview whiteboard practice free.

It has started to go virtual too...

https://www.preplounge.com/en/consulting-forum/using-zoom-whiteboard-for-case-interview-8491

you're linking a page about covid era zoom practices.

Remote work and no-fly consulting are things.

Our VP of HR (F500) is fully wfh

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many tech interviews are standardized now. Tests plus certificates etc.

Consulting largely standardized now too.

PP. My peers who practiced for consulting interviews actually practiced whiteboard skills. Being able to keep your train of thought while standing in front of a whiteboard (drawing diagrams or making outlines) and fielding questions. Professors certainly have to do this, but there is no application of "advanced walk, talk, and draw on whiteboard" at my corporate workplace that would impact one's work effectiveness. Not talking about everyday collaboration with an incidental sketch or two or even executive presentation skills. It was basically a consultant's version of training to be a runway model - to "look like a consultant". It was horrifying and funny.

This happened in the last 15 years?

Just Google case interview whiteboard practice free.

It has started to go virtual too...

https://www.preplounge.com/en/consulting-forum/using-zoom-whiteboard-for-case-interview-8491

you're linking a page about covid era zoom practices.

Remote work and no-fly consulting are things.

Our VP of HR (F500) is fully wfh

Sure, but the interview and test round process is still in person. They even fly kids in for interviews. But the "how many golf balls in Idaho stuff" is pretty outdated. There are a lot more skills assessment rounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I promise this is not a troll post because there's been so much Michigan bashing, but from oos (not Michigan) And this group has more info about Michigan than I've ever seen.
Now that Ross is separate, should LSA be easier to get into? What do you think Michigan looks at most: Class rank, grades, SAT, AP scores?

Ross takes applications for freshman now? When I went you applied when you were a sophomore. There wasn’t a 4-year business program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I promise this is not a troll post because there's been so much Michigan bashing, but from oos (not Michigan) And this group has more info about Michigan than I've ever seen.
Now that Ross is separate, should LSA be easier to get into? What do you think Michigan looks at most: Class rank, grades, SAT, AP scores?

Ross takes applications for freshman now? When I went you applied when you were a sophomore. There wasn’t a 4-year business program.

Yes, Ross does direct admit for freshmen now. You can also apply after freshmen year for transfer into Ross