Senior Living -- More Expensive, More Rules??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP again and shut down talk of relocating him. Too complicated, expensive and too great a stress on all involved.

Truth is, even in skilled nursing, the resident is alone and only sees a nurse to get vitals checked, meds delivered, perhaps meals delivered to the room, dressed and undressed and basic ADL to include toileting in a.m. and p.m.

Anything else they must ring the call bell - and that’s often ignored for a shockingly long time.

My mom fell in the skilled nursing unit in private bathroom - shattered her pelvis and sat on the floor in the dark crying and by all accounts waited 10 minutes for a response. Then a nurse wandered in and tried to move her/urged her to pull to a stand. Rescue squad called by another nurse. All this to say my mom was in a “fancy” Sunrise facility - you don’t get what you pay for.

Which Sunrise?!? That’s awful. My parents just moved to a Sunrise and I like it, but still evaluating because it’s all so new.

[Anonymous]

This is a very tough situation.

The best incentive for you to move him would be to get out from under the co-signer burden.

You might be able to move him to a skilled nursing facility, especially if he first has a hospital stay to adjust medications, evaluate mental status, identify skilled needs, etc. Medicaid might be in the picture if he runs out of money there.

If you don’t want to or can’t move him, look into how effective his pain management is. Pain makes people ornery sometimes. Take away the offending pajamas and substitute acceptable loungewear. See if you can get him on visit lists for whatever groups come to the facility.

And, yes, check in with a local attorney who is affiliated with the National Academy of Elder law Attorneys. Have them review the relevant contracts. Ask them about alternative facilities.

It sounds like he is a handful and that the facility is playing hardball to get rid of him. He will probably be better off elsewhere if you do some shopping.

[Anonymous]

Complaining is the number one thing people do in these facilities- especially in the first year. Do people visit him or is he basically on his own? Has he made any friends there?

I would nail down the plan for when he needs more care. Don’t sign anything with the new place.

[Anonymous]

Adding: there are “board and care home” facilities that are smaller, less institutional and sometimes more residential than the average “senior” or “assisted living” facility. Maybe he’d be happier and find a better fit somewhere like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - You need to get the advice of an Eldercare Lawyer how you can help this relative, but how you can be clear with any arrangement made for him that you will not be responsible for his bills! You need to protect your family and step back if needed to do so.

The facility would not let him move in without a co-signer, and his house was already on the market with several interested buyers. He had a contract on the house within a day or two. I think this co-signer arrangement is becoming more common, because that's what other local facilities required too. He's got good but not infinite money for an 87yo. His argument is that he can afford all this and he won't live much longer. (His mother lived to 100!) Things seem fine now, but assisted or other increased medical assisted living will cost significantly more. If he gets down to $0 on the day he dies, so be it. It is his money. But if he goes negative before then, I'm going to be lit, because then it's my money and I like I said I have immediate family to look out for too.

I'm not sure about it being that common/mandatory. My Dad has been able to move into multiple facilities (like your uncle, he makes impulsive decisions) in the last few years with no co-signer. Unfortunately I think it might be required specifically of your uncle, because his financial situation isn't too stable...and eventually you WILL be on the hook.
I think you should consult a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

In the case of the PJs, I think it's a way CCRCs keep track of who can manage their ADLs; it's also a way regulatory agencies make sure residents are being properly cared for: people need to be putting on clean clothes every day, and they need to be changing out of their pajamas, not just putting (or letting staff put) street clothes over pajamas.

The more money a CCRC has, the more likely it's going to enforce rules, simply because it has the staff to do so.

This sounds like first-year bullheadedness, honestly. I doubt your uncle would be hearing about it if he came to breakfast in sweats or lounge pants. He's trying to start something.

Tell him he can't afford to move and if he gets moved, it will be to someplace worse.

[Anonymous]

Agree that changing clothes etc is a way to monitor ADLs. He is 10000% opposed to a place with more care. He wants more amenities and fewer rules — like you’d get in a non-senior living place but with senior living amenities as well. I don’t think it exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You should never have signed that agreement that required you to pay in his place.

+1
These places are expensive and he will run out of money eventually unless there is a steady stream of income in addition to his house assets.
He won’t want to talk about Plan B but YOU need to talk about it so that you have time to plan to get him to apply for Medicaid and get j to a Medicaid facility before your bank account is drained in the six months that you are waiting for it to be approved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the case of the PJs, I think it's a way CCRCs keep track of who can manage their ADLs; it's also a way regulatory agencies make sure residents are being properly cared for: people need to be putting on clean clothes every day, and they need to be changing out of their pajamas, not just putting (or letting staff put) street clothes over pajamas.

The more money a CCRC has, the more likely it's going to enforce rules, simply because it has the staff to do so.

This sounds like first-year bullheadedness, honestly. I doubt your uncle would be hearing about it if he came to breakfast in sweats or lounge pants. He's trying to start something.

Tell him he can't afford to move and if he gets moved, it will be to someplace worse.

Could be, but it’s also a way to keep a classy place classy because good grief—other residents have a right to enjoy breakfast without looking at disheveled disgruntled uncle in his skivvies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again and shut down talk of relocating him. Too complicated, expensive and too great a stress on all involved.

Truth is, even in skilled nursing, the resident is alone and only sees a nurse to get vitals checked, meds delivered, perhaps meals delivered to the room, dressed and undressed and basic ADL to include toileting in a.m. and p.m.

Anything else they must ring the call bell - and that’s often ignored for a shockingly long time.

My mom fell in the skilled nursing unit in private bathroom - shattered her pelvis and sat on the floor in the dark crying and by all accounts waited 10 minutes for a response. Then a nurse wandered in and tried to move her/urged her to pull to a stand. Rescue squad called by another nurse. All this to say my mom was in a “fancy” Sunrise facility - you don’t get what you pay for.

Which Sunrise?!? That’s awful. My parents just moved to a Sunrise and I like it, but still evaluating because it’s all so new.

Ft Belvoir

[Anonymous]

OP, I would do some research on facilities that allow for a shift to MediCAID when his money runs out. If you could find one now, you could move him there and get out from under the co-signer agreement. If you don't do it now, you'll have to do it when he runs out of money.

Do you know how much he has? How much SS he gets? Any pensions? If so, estimate how long he has for private pay.

Is there a facility that would take Medicaid nearer to you? It might be easier for you to move him closer to you.

Dealing with aging relatives is hard. Sending you a hug.

[Anonymous]

I seem to have unintentionally led people to believe he’s in the brink of bankruptcy. He has money now. About a half million. If he lives another 10 years like others in his family, things could become an issue especially if he has to move into assisted living (due to failing eyesight and other physical issues). He has good healthcare from his wife’s former employer (a community college the belonged to the public system). He has a small pension.

Right now, he wants an independent senior living place. The only thing his current doesn’t have is a pool. It has a library, a movie theater, on-site social and entertainment events, a large dining room, a hair salon, a can to take you to appointments within a 10 mile radius (his docs are all in this radius), covered parking for his car (!), free grocery delivery to the facility (he has to pay extra for room delivery, I think), etc. He just doesn’t like all the rules.

He doesn’t like that the assistants he hires are for scheduled times. For example, he had surgery soon after moving into the place. I got him set up with folks who provided help with getting out of bed and dressing. He was pissed that the cane at set times for like 15 minutes. His argument? Sometimes he wants to get up earlier or later. He hates having set times for meals and assistances. I and the “helping hands organization told him he could hire someone to be on call but that means paying for someone for their time whether he used them or not. That did not go over well with him. The list of gripes goes on and on.

I think he just hasn’t reconciled himself with the fact that the rules are how senior living works. Going to a more expensive place won’t help him avoid schedules and dressing in something other than Pjs in public.

Thanks for the inputs and allowing me to vent a bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I seem to have unintentionally led people to believe he’s in the brink of bankruptcy. He has money now. About a half million. If he lives another 10 years like others in his family, things could become an issue especially if he has to move into assisted living (due to failing eyesight and other physical issues). He has good healthcare from his wife’s former employer (a community college the belonged to the public system). He has a small pension.

Right now, he wants an independent senior living place. The only thing his current doesn’t have is a pool. It has a library, a movie theater, on-site social and entertainment events, a large dining room, a hair salon, a can to take you to appointments within a 10 mile radius (his docs are all in this radius), covered parking for his car (!), free grocery delivery to the facility (he has to pay extra for room delivery, I think), etc. He just doesn’t like all the rules.

He doesn’t like that the assistants he hires are for scheduled times. For example, he had surgery soon after moving into the place. I got him set up with folks who provided help with getting out of bed and dressing. He was pissed that the cane at set times for like 15 minutes. His argument? Sometimes he wants to get up earlier or later. He hates having set times for meals and assistances. I and the “helping hands organization told him he could hire someone to be on call but that means paying for someone for their time whether he used them or not. That did not go over well with him. The list of gripes goes on and on.

I think he just hasn’t reconciled himself with the fact that the rules are how senior living works. Going to a more expensive place won’t help him avoid schedules and dressing in something other than Pjs in public.

Thanks for the inputs and allowing me to vent a bit.

I'm a pp that said my Dad has moved facilities multiple times without a co-signer.

I'm sorry, OP, but 1/2 million in this context is not a lot of money. My Dad has about $2 million. Between his pension and social security he takes in a little over $6k/month, and the facilities he's been living in are just under $6k/month (these facilities include all food, housing, transportation, activities--basically all expenses except personal things like toothpaste and clothing.)
You don't say how much your uncle's pension is, but if his monthly guaranteed income (pension + social security) is less than the cost of the facility, I can see why they are requiring a co-signer.

Also, since your uncle sounds similar to my Dad, be on the lookout for your uncle to fall prey to scams. It's been a huge issue with my Dad-about 2 years ago I posted about my Dad donating nearly $100,000 to various politicians through ACT BLUE. It wasn't one big donation, it was literally thousands of small donations (most were between $5-25) over the course of four months, and we (his adult kids) didn't find out until all that money was gone.

Then, two weeks ago he was scammed out of another $31k. Some message popped up on his computer saying his identity had been stolen and to call a number. Long story short, within 4 days a scammer was able to convince him that his social security number had been used to open accounts used in drug trafficking and child sex abuse rings. The "agent" (scammer) told my dad that to get his social security number changed he would need to pay. He told my dad to withdraw $31k in cash from his bank account and wait out front of his senior living facility. A black BMW (with windows so tinted that my dad could not see the driver) pulled up and rolled down a back window. My dad put the bag of cash in the backseat through the window, and the car pulled away. It was that simple. After we found out about this we asked his senior living facility if they had any security video footage, but apparently the scammer knew exactly where the cameras were located and this all took place out of camera view.

I hope nothing like that happens to your uncle, and I really think you should see a lawyer about your responsibilities and obligations in this situation.

[Anonymous]

1. You need to get him out of this facility where they forced you to agree to pay when he can't.

2. Don't underestimate how long it takes to switch facilities.

3. Get him in one that does not require a co-signer. If that means a government run facility, then so be it. His wishes do not supercede your personal financial health, OP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I seem to have unintentionally led people to believe he’s in the brink of bankruptcy. He has money now. About a half million. If he lives another 10 years like others in his family, things could become an issue especially if he has to move into assisted living (due to failing eyesight and other physical issues). He has good healthcare from his wife’s former employer (a community college the belonged to the public system). He has a small pension.

Right now, he wants an independent senior living place. The only thing his current doesn’t have is a pool. It has a library, a movie theater, on-site social and entertainment events, a large dining room, a hair salon, a can to take you to appointments within a 10 mile radius (his docs are all in this radius), covered parking for his car (!), free grocery delivery to the facility (he has to pay extra for room delivery, I think), etc. He just doesn’t like all the rules.

He doesn’t like that the assistants he hires are for scheduled times. For example, he had surgery soon after moving into the place. I got him set up with folks who provided help with getting out of bed and dressing. He was pissed that the cane at set times for like 15 minutes. His argument? Sometimes he wants to get up earlier or later. He hates having set times for meals and assistances. I and the “helping hands organization told him he could hire someone to be on call but that means paying for someone for their time whether he used them or not. That did not go over well with him. The list of gripes goes on and on.

I think he just hasn’t reconciled himself with the fact that the rules are how senior living works. Going to a more expensive place won’t help him avoid schedules and dressing in something other than Pjs in public.

Thanks for the inputs and allowing me to vent a bit.

I'm a pp that said my Dad has moved facilities multiple times without a co-signer.

I'm sorry, OP, but 1/2 million in this context is not a lot of money. My Dad has about $2 million. Between his pension and social security he takes in a little over $6k/month, and the facilities he's been living in are just under $6k/month (these facilities include all food, housing, transportation, activities--basically all expenses except personal things like toothpaste and clothing.)
You don't say how much your uncle's pension is, but if his monthly guaranteed income (pension + social security) is less than the cost of the facility, I can see why they are requiring a co-signer.

Also, since your uncle sounds similar to my Dad, be on the lookout for your uncle to fall prey to scams. It's been a huge issue with my Dad-about 2 years ago I posted about my Dad donating nearly $100,000 to various politicians through ACT BLUE. It wasn't one big donation, it was literally thousands of small donations (most were between $5-25) over the course of four months, and we (his adult kids) didn't find out until all that money was gone.

Then, two weeks ago he was scammed out of another $31k. Some message popped up on his computer saying his identity had been stolen and to call a number. Long story short, within 4 days a scammer was able to convince him that his social security number had been used to open accounts used in drug trafficking and child sex abuse rings. The "agent" (scammer) told my dad that to get his social security number changed he would need to pay. He told my dad to withdraw $31k in cash from his bank account and wait out front of his senior living facility. A black BMW (with windows so tinted that my dad could not see the driver) pulled up and rolled down a back window. My dad put the bag of cash in the backseat through the window, and the car pulled away. It was that simple. After we found out about this we asked his senior living facility if they had any security video footage, but apparently the scammer knew exactly where the cameras were located and this all took place out of camera view.

I hope nothing like that happens to your uncle, and I really think you should see a lawyer about your responsibilities and obligations in this situation.

I agree that half a million isn’t a lot. That’s why I’m a bit freaked out. We had another relative whose money drained quickly as the faculty moved him between assisted living and memory care.

That’s said, he has more than many people his age.

Today he is fine. It’s tomorrow that concerns me.