US News Releases Latest Law School Rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think these things actually change year to year? The folks who do hiring only remember the rankings from when they were in school. No one is going to rate Duke higher than Harvard (not a grad of either school).

USNWR tries to punish schools that don't play the game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does a Minnesota law grad really have the same opportunities as grads from the other Top 20 schools?

That was the one that surprised me. I get you probably have lots of opportunities in MN and perhaps the midwest...but are the large coastal firms actively recruiting?

Those MN law grads from east coast end up at a federal agency in DC area

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does a Minnesota law grad really have the same opportunities as grads from the other Top 20 schools?

That was the one that surprised me. I get you probably have lots of opportunities in MN and perhaps the midwest...but are the large coastal firms actively recruiting?

I’m a big law lawyer and participate in my firm’s interview process for law students. No, they do not. And the subset of schools that national/coastal law firms actively recruit from is the T14, not T20 (not sure why it’s 14 as opposed to some other number). That’s not to say a firm would auto-reject a top-performing UMN law student, but most Vault 50-100 firms aren’t recruiting there, so it’s a matter of the student taking initiative or applying through a connection. And they would have to be a tippy top student (top 10% or so, be on law review, etc.) to get an interview, whereas T14 students have a lot more leeway.

Just curious...is a Vanderbilt law grad just as s**t out of luck as the UMN law grad from your perspective?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVA tied with Harvard and Penn - good for them!

Being tied with Harvard is impressive, but historically UVA law has been better than Penn law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does a Minnesota law grad really have the same opportunities as grads from the other Top 20 schools?

That was the one that surprised me. I get you probably have lots of opportunities in MN and perhaps the midwest...but are the large coastal firms actively recruiting?

I’m a big law lawyer and participate in my firm’s interview process for law students. No, they do not. And the subset of schools that national/coastal law firms actively recruit from is the T14, not T20 (not sure why it’s 14 as opposed to some other number). That’s not to say a firm would auto-reject a top-performing UMN law student, but most Vault 50-100 firms aren’t recruiting there, so it’s a matter of the student taking initiative or applying through a connection. And they would have to be a tippy top student (top 10% or so, be on law review, etc.) to get an interview, whereas T14 students have a lot more leeway.

Just curious...is a Vanderbilt law grad just as s**t out of luck as the UMN law grad from your perspective?

I’ve worked in both NYC and DC big law, and have seen a few Vanderbilt grads. But the same point - that most major big law firms don’t actively recruit there, and that a student applying on their own initiative would have to be at the top of the class - applies. It doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t be hired, it’s just a much harder road. Law schools’ big law + federal clerkship rates are published on their websites and can give you an idea of the percentage of students that gets those kind of jobs. Just be careful because some schools inflate the law firm number by including regional firms.

I’d actually recommend that if a student is interested in big law and can’t attend a T14, the best route is to attend a decent, well-known local school in the market they’re targeting. Like GW for DC or Fordham/Cardozo for NYC. They’re well known enough that there are a decent number of alums working at law firms, and law firms often do recruit good students there because they’re local and it’s easy. Still have to do really well, but I think it’s a little easier.

[Anonymous]

Vanderbilt law grad can work in NY or DC if they want to. You just don’t see as many in DC in part because Vanderbilt law school has ~500 students in total. Georgetown has 600+ for each year. Plus the night program. Also Vanderbilt grads might work for the Nashville firms or the Atlanta or Charlotte offices of national firms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UVA tied with Harvard and Penn - good for them!

Being tied with Harvard is impressive, but historically UVA law has been better than Penn law.

Not according to the rankings.

[Anonymous]

Here are the actual leaked rankings:

1. Stanford, Yale
3. Chicago
4. Duke, Harvard, Penn, Virginia
8. Columbia
9. NYU, Northwestern, Michigan
12. Berkeley
13. UCLA
14. Cornell, Georgetown
16. Minnesota, Texas, WashU
19. Vanderbilt
20. Georgia, UNC, Notre Dame, USC
24. Boston U
25. Wake Forest

UVA up 4 spots, NYU down 4.
Berkeley down 2, Wash U up 4, Vanderbilt down 3, Notre Dame up 7

It is interesting to me that Chicago has been firmly above Harvard for a few years, and now other schools have also jumped up to tie it. In the popular imagination, Harvard Law is the ultimate but it is a huge institution and its reputation within in the field differs a little

[Anonymous]

If you care deeply about the rankings (and I don't know why you would), Spivey Consulting is the go-to authority for information.

His speculation is that some of the changes USNWR made to this year's formula produced such radically different rankings that they had to delay their release until they could further tweak the formula to find a metric that would help put them back to result closer to past years (Spivey speculates it has something to do with employment after 2 years)

If US News is reverse engineering its formula to get the rankings to come out the way they want (and evidence strongly suggests they are), it certainly underscores how useless these rankings really are

Also congrats to UVA and Notre Dame for leaning into their Federalist Society chapters, with the resultant very high proportion of students getting clerkships with conservative federal judges and boosting their rankings via that metric. Can the ASSOL at George Mason be far behind?

[Anonymous]

I’ve always thought T14 was a made up cutoff just to include Georgetown. No other “top” list cuts off so oddly.

A strong student at a super regional can definitely be recruited by big law. They have offices all over the country and value those educations more than people who are focused on status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you care deeply about the rankings (and I don't know why you would), Spivey Consulting is the go-to authority for information.

His speculation is that some of the changes USNWR made to this year's formula produced such radically different rankings that they had to delay their release until they could further tweak the formula to find a metric that would help put them back to result closer to past years (Spivey speculates it has something to do with employment after 2 years)

If US News is reverse engineering its formula to get the rankings to come out the way they want (and evidence strongly suggests they are), it certainly underscores how useless these rankings really are

Also congrats to UVA and Notre Dame for leaning into their Federalist Society chapters, with the resultant very high proportion of students getting clerkships with conservative federal judges and boosting their rankings via that metric. Can the ASSOL at George Mason be far behind?

Of course they do this. College rankings are among the worst kinds of pseudoscience. We can all agree Yale Law is better than University of Arkansas School of Law. But pretending to discern among these law schools by rank ordering them is folly. It’s worse than useless, it perverts the incentives of what law schools do. I’m glad that my law school dropped in rankings. Chasing them distorts their missions.

[Anonymous]

I know rankings aren’t everything and I’m 20 years post-JD, but I was happy to see my Alma mater (UNC) at #20!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does a Minnesota law grad really have the same opportunities as grads from the other Top 20 schools?

That was the one that surprised me. I get you probably have lots of opportunities in MN and perhaps the midwest...but are the large coastal firms actively recruiting?

No. I am a Minnesota grad who ultimately made it to DOJ by clawing my way there. Once there, I was surrounded by Yale grads who were essentially courted and chauffeured into their jobs. Mind you, we were doing the exact same work at the same level but I had to work so, so much harder to arrive at the identical position

(This was a fairly elite unit within DOJ)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since most top schools refuse to report to USNWR anymore, these rankings are somewhat bogus.

Harvard specifically has opted-out.

The USNWR ranking is meaningless.

[Anonymous]

You all are not really experts in colleges and law schools etc. USNWR uses publicly available data to rank, now that schools have withdrawn. Withdrawal has nothing to do with the validity of the data.