Are you culturally related to your religion?
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
Anonymous
DP. You get what you give. If you want someone on a message board to refute your thesis in detail, you first need to provide a detailed thesis, which you haven't done. It's all been laid out in this award winning atheist blog...but you have to do the actual work of reading it. https://historyforatheists.com/the-great-myths/5 |
Anonymous
+1. That's a good blog that engages with actual professional scholarship (and the primary sources or relies on) on this topic, which is rare in these discussions. The "sources" that tend to get cited on this topic in DCUM are usually light on scholarship and primary sources. That same blog's "Paganism" tab has other good articles they've done. The interview with Dr. Nothaft, for instance, is a good listen for issues with the dating of Christmas, where the pop history version isn't much supported by actual evidence. Unfortunately, I've never seen this evidence sway anyone. "Christianity/Christmas/Easter has pagan origins" is a belief that I think a lot of people just accept on the authority of pop historians rather than looking for primary sources supporting it. |
Anonymous
OK, that's fine, I am a DP but I'll do as you ask. I'll cite a few facts specifically and then if you can tell me how the podcast link refutes those as false that would be educational to me. Saturnalia is a classic example of a winter solstice festival, one of many which have evolved in different cultures to bring good cheer in the season of long nights, and to mark the sense a sense of renewal and rejuvenation. In 274 AD, long after Saturnalia was already a thing, the Romans established yet another way to mark the season: a day to celebrate the sun god Sol Invictus. And the day in question? December 25th. It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same December 25 the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries, the Christians also took part.' Less than a century later, Pope Julius I officially established that same date as Christ’s birthday, conveniently appropriating the existing pagan shenanigans as a key Christian date. https://www.history.co.uk/article/the-pagan-roots-of-christmas Let's start with that one. I will post more. How does the podcast refute that? |
Anonymous
Most of Christianity was a complete U-turn from paganism, for better or worse. Were there a few overlapping customs?Of course. Similar to your example many people believe that it is not accident that lent occurs at the end of winter when food supplies would have been depleted. Claiming that the Christians just stole pagan customs is not an accurate statement about Christian customs and traditions. Finally, if this is what you believe, there is nothing stopping you from celebrating the pagan traditions instead. It sounds like celebrating Saturnalia would be more spiritually fulfilling for you than celebrating “stolen” traditions. -signed, an atheist |
Anonymous
Thanks but I was looking for references specific in that podcast, and posted what I did at the PP's request. I am not the PP who used the word "stolen". Can I get the response promised from the podcast poster now please? |
Anonymous
| No matter my belief or non belief in God, I'm Jewish. I'm Jewish because my parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. were also Jewish. Regardless of their beliefs, they lived in Jewish communities and were treated as Jewish by others. We celebrate -- and have celebrated for generations -- Jewish traditions and observances. Whether I believe in God is irrelevant. |
Anonymous
DP, and I haven't listened to the podcast, but that bit of history is very easy to refute in this certain form; that is a THEORY, but the data for it is sparse and it's generally disfavored by most contemporary historians. In terms of data, Sol Invictus was a minor deity until the late 3rd century. 274 is when the cult of Sol Invictus got a boost under Aurelius, but there's not solid data that December 25th was the date of any festival for Sol Invictus at that time. You'll find some scholars who think the December 25th festival began in 274, but that's supposition. There's also basically no evidence that the holiday was particularly important or widespread festival. The first definite reference to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti being on December 25th we have comes in the Chronograph of 354, which is the same source that everyone agrees on December 25th as a date for Christmas. Some older historians, relying on a much later source, Dionysius Bar Salibi writing in the 12th century who claimed that the December 25th date was chosen because it coincided with Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. You quoted him when said "It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same December 25 the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries, the Christians also took part." No serious historian would rely on this source in 2023, however. Firstly, because he's writing centuries after the events he's describing. It would be as if I made up a story about someone who lived in the 14th century. You need primary source data to support anything I write about something that happened 700 years ago. I'm not a reliable source on my own. Secondly, because he's writing a polemic to support an alternative date of Christmas (January 6th). The approach relying on supposed connections to other holidays tends to be called the "History of Religions" approach, and it's not currently supported by most historians. The alternative approach, which is currently supported by academic historians, is called the Calculation Theory. In suggests that Christians first calculated Jesus's death date and relying on a modified version of a belief that holy men died the same day they were born. They calculated Jesus's death date based on the Gospels and then assigned that date, March 25th, to his conception, not his birth. Going forward nine months they arrived on December 25th as the date of his birth. There's evidence that Christians began dating the conception of Jesus, the Annunciation, much earlier than Christmas, possibly as early as the 200s, well before any evidence that Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was celebrated on December 25th. Some of that evidence is contested, but plenty of scholars accept it. So when you present the Sol Invictus story as "facts," you're wildly misstating the state of the scholarship among academic historians. The evidence simply isn't there, and most historians think an alternative story is more likely. |
Anonymous
Podcast poster here. If you had listened to it, you'd know that Saturnalia ranged from October to early December, so there wasn't a lot of overlap in the dates. If you had listened, you'd also know that the Romans had a festival almost every week (they had a lot of gods after all), so it would be pretty impossible to choose a date that *wasn't* a pagan holiday. Also there was something about Sol Invictus not being it either, but I listen to the pod a few weeks ago and have forgotten. You'll have to listen. |
Anonymous
Trying to be polite, but then why would you respond when I am explicitly asking about the podcast linked? |
Anonymous
Are you interested in the facts or are you interested in a book report on a podcast? |
Anonymous
I don't want to have to listen to a podcast. We're supposed to be having a conversation here. That was my main point. I will point out that neither of the points you listed are mutually exclusive in any way to the point that was posted and in no way refutes it. |
Anonymous
|
There's a DCUM atheist who routinely goes off topic and also insists everybody else must do the work of refuting the atheist's claims.
I've actually found this OT discussion interesting especially 9:49 and 11:57. But it's basically falling into that obnoxious atheist's MO. Let's get back to the thread topic.... |
Anonymous
I am interested in having a conversation and was in the middle of one. Stop being petulant. |
Anonymous
PS. I was talking about The Rest is History podcast, not the other which looks interesting and which I might listen to as well. But again, if you had listened to TRIH, you'd also know that December 25th was picked because it's nine months from Easter. Early Christians (and Jews) were big on calendar significance that way. |
Anonymous
|
Yes. I think I am mostly a cultural and spiritual Hindu.
However, Hindu religion does not make a distinction between believer, non-believer, atheist, Hindu, Hhristian, muslim, Sikh, Jew, Wiccan, human, non-human etc. So, whatever I am and whatever I do, I remain a Hindu. |