Changes to UVA's Business Program/McIntire School of Commerce

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So now it is a three-year vs two-year program. The school of commerce at UVA is $10K more per year, does this mean they will start charging it a year earlier?

The UVA McINTIRE School is not $10 more a year. Total for 2024 students will be $44k. The College of arts & Sciences is $37k. If you subtract the $3200 for health insurance, as we did (keep your kids in your own policy) and don’t include transportation the cost is $38,750. Also by year two, when the new program starts, your student can move off campus saving much of that $26,599 room and board. DS moved into group housing- four men -and did his own cooking and walked everywhere. So, conceivably, you can do it for less than Arts & Sciences. If your child stayed on room and board for the three years and paid for insurance and travel only then would McIntire be some $6k more x 3 years but it’s rare to be in a dorm that long. Considering USC and Northeastern have blown by $90k a year I think this is very good deal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: This is why uva is the best public university. It's a public ivy.

Why ... [h]aving a prestigious three year undergraduate business program is what makes a school Ivy?

Most Ivy League schools do not have undergrad business. They have medicine, law, public policy, divinity, and forestry, but business is just too bourgeois.

The University of Maryland, College Park, R.H. Smith School of Business also has some minors. This is an awful idea. Business is actually multiple professions (finance, accounting, marketing, manufacturing, supply chain, information systems, entrepreneurship, human resources and organizational behavior, strategy). Business courses are upper-level subjects; you need prerequisites.

Typical business programs require some basic math, statistics, computer skills, accounting, and micro- or macro-economics. There is also a business law or business environment class. To pacify lower-level students, there might be a Business 101 class. The dean who taught it to freshman told me "they don't know anything!" In other words, they don't know that businesses need to make money, stockholders versus bondholders, board of directors, antitrust law, labor unions, financial market regulation. They don't know about elasticity of supply and demand, stock versus flow, cash flow versus accounting accrual, asset versus liability, the three major financial statements, debit versus credit, or the basic math of optimization and break-even analysis.

So, business schools offer a few minor courses for non-business majors without prior knowledge. These are lightweight versions of their basic core courses. They might be useful, but are certainly not "prestigious" nor advanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: This is why uva is the best public university. It's a public ivy.

Why ... [h]aving a prestigious three year undergraduate business program is what makes a school Ivy?

Most Ivy League schools do not have undergrad business. They have medicine, law, public policy, divinity, and forestry, but business is just too bourgeois.

The University of Maryland, College Park, R.H. Smith School of Business also has some minors. This is an awful idea. Business is actually multiple professions (finance, accounting, marketing, manufacturing, supply chain, information systems, entrepreneurship, human resources and organizational behavior, strategy). Business courses are upper-level subjects; you need prerequisites.

Typical business programs require some basic math, statistics, computer skills, accounting, and micro- or macro-economics. There is also a business law or business environment class. To pacify lower-level students, there might be a Business 101 class. The dean who taught it to freshman told me "they don't know anything!" In other words, they don't know that businesses need to make money, stockholders versus bondholders, board of directors, antitrust law, labor unions, financial market regulation. They don't know about elasticity of supply and demand, stock versus flow, cash flow versus accounting accrual, asset versus liability, the three major financial statements, debit versus credit, or the basic math of optimization and break-even analysis.

So, business schools offer a few minor courses for non-business majors without prior knowledge. These are lightweight versions of their basic core courses. They might be useful, but are certainly not "prestigious" nor advanced.

Uh, ever hear of Wharton? https://undergrad.wharton.upenn.edu/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: OP -I had read last week that this was not starting until 2028 (it was buried in the fine print of the article). Have I got that wrong

I was told by UVA personnel that they planned to roll it out next year, but I was surprised it was not announced when they announced the change in the McIntire program. I've only seen the website and Cavalier Daily announcements and have not seen the article that references 2028 -- that is quite a delay from what UVA apparently was planning.

I think I’m wrong. Looks like it applies to this fall’s students so first applications would be next spring 2024. https://experience.mcintire.virginia.edu/news/mcintire-school-expands-to-three-year-curriculum/. Someone asked on the other thread how transfer students will be treated. The cited article says it will be addressed in the transfer literature at a later date.

I don't believe it applies to this fall's students. The start of the new three-year program and the resulting change in admissions cycle will go "in effect for first-time, first-year UVA students in the fall of 2024." So next year (2024-25) when the change begins, first years/2028 grads will apply at the end of their first year in Spring 2025 for the new three-year program (to start their second year) at the same that the current first year 2027 grads will be applying at the end of their second year for the existing two-year program (to start their third year).

I haven't seen anything on the UVA website yet about a new business/commerce Minor being offered to the general UVA population outside of the McIntire School of Commerce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why ... [h]aving a prestigious three year undergraduate business program is what makes a school Ivy?

Anonymous wrote:Most Ivy League schools do not have undergrad business.

Anonymous wrote:Uh, ever hear of Wharton? https://undergrad.wharton.upenn.edu/

Maybe you think the Ivy League is just Penn and Cornell? Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, or Brown do not have business majors, although Brown has a new business economics track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: This is why uva is the best public university. It's a public ivy.

Why ... [h]aving a prestigious three year undergraduate business program is what makes a school Ivy?

Most Ivy League schools do not have undergrad business. They have medicine, law, public policy, divinity, and forestry, but business is just too bourgeois.

The University of Maryland, College Park, R.H. Smith School of Business also has some minors. This is an awful idea. Business is actually multiple professions (finance, accounting, marketing, manufacturing, supply chain, information systems, entrepreneurship, human resources and organizational behavior, strategy). Business courses are upper-level subjects; you need prerequisites.

Typical business programs require some basic math, statistics, computer skills, accounting, and micro- or macro-economics. There is also a business law or business environment class. To pacify lower-level students, there might be a Business 101 class. The dean who taught it to freshman told me "they don't know anything!" In other words, they don't know that businesses need to make money, stockholders versus bondholders, board of directors, antitrust law, labor unions, financial market regulation. They don't know about elasticity of supply and demand, stock versus flow, cash flow versus accounting accrual, asset versus liability, the three major financial statements, debit versus credit, or the basic math of optimization and break-even analysis.

So, business schools offer a few minor courses for non-business majors without prior knowledge. These are lightweight versions of their basic core courses. They might be useful, but are certainly not "prestigious" nor advanced.

Uh, ever hear of Wharton? https://undergrad.wharton.upenn.edu/

+1. Cornell, an Ivy, also has a undergrad business degreee

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now it is a three-year vs two-year program. The school of commerce at UVA is $10K more per year, does this mean they will start charging it a year earlier?

The UVA McINTIRE School is not $10 more a year. Total for 2024 students will be $44k. The College of arts & Sciences is $37k. If you subtract the $3200 for health insurance, as we did (keep your kids in your own policy) and don’t include transportation the cost is $38,750. Also by year two, when the new program starts, your student can move off campus saving much of that $26,599 room and board. DS moved into group housing- four men -and did his own cooking and walked everywhere. So, conceivably, you can do it for less than Arts & Sciences. If your child stayed on room and board for the three years and paid for insurance and travel only then would McIntire be some $6k more x 3 years but it’s rare to be in a dorm that long. Considering USC and Northeastern have blown by $90k a year I think this is very good deal

I’m gonna disagree with you here, in state CAS tuition is $21730 for 2/3 years and McIntire is $30,336. No you can’t do McIntire for less than the College. Yes you can do better in off grounds housing than dorms but the tuition is what it is. It’s an $8700 difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That’s an interesting change. My DC did not apply to UVA because of wanting to definitely be able to major in business. This change would likely not have changed our perspective and it will be interesting to see if they eventually go to direct admit.

+1

UVA was missing out to students attending more prestigious business programs. Let’s see if UVA can keep upnow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s an interesting change. My DC did not apply to UVA because of wanting to definitely be able to major in business. This change would likely not have changed our perspective and it will be interesting to see if they eventually go to direct admit.

+1

UVA was missing out to students attending more prestigious business programs. Let’s see if UVA can keep upnow.

Part of running a business is risk management. To many good business programs out there to risk a second hurdle to get into a business program.

Waiting one year or two years to clear the hurdle does not change the equation. No value in the change unless this is a path to direct admit and some senior leader at UVA is slow to grasp the advantage of direct admit.

[Anonymous]

If UVA intended to offer undergraduate business programs, they would have housed them within Darden. McIntire is not officially designated as a business school by UVA. So, why are you referring to it as such?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If UVA intended to offer undergraduate business programs, they would have housed them within Darden. McIntire is not officially designated as a business school by UVA. So, why are you referring to it as such?

Because it is the business school. Must we have this argument again?

[Anonymous]

Haha, there's an interesting twist here. McIntire is essentially a business school, but UVA already has one officially named Darden. 😄 Of course, you're free to think of your undergraduate experience as being part of Darden if that makes you happy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If UVA intended to offer undergraduate business programs, they would have housed them within Darden. McIntire is not officially designated as a business school by UVA. So, why are you referring to it as such?

Because it is the business school. Must we have this argument again?

No matter how frequently you label a donkey as a horse, it will never metamorphose into a horse. Likewise, the University of Virginia (UVA) encompasses both a business school and a commerce school, each with its distinct purpose. Currently, Darden (the business school) does not provide any undergraduate courses or programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If UVA intended to offer undergraduate business programs, they would have housed them within Darden. McIntire is not officially designated as a business school by UVA. So, why are you referring to it as such?

Because it is the business school. Must we have this argument again?

No matter how frequently you label a donkey as a horse, it will never metamorphose into a horse. Likewise, the University of Virginia (UVA) encompasses both a business school and a commerce school, each with its distinct purpose. Currently, Darden (the business school) does not provide any undergraduate courses or programs.

Oh we’re doing this again. Why do you believe that the “commerce” major is not a business major? McIntire’s BS in Commerce. offers concentrations in finance, accounting, management, IT management, and marketing. If those are not business concentrations I don’t know what is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s an interesting change. My DC did not apply to UVA because of wanting to definitely be able to major in business. This change would likely not have changed our perspective and it will be interesting to see if they eventually go to direct admit.

+1

UVA was missing out to students attending more prestigious business programs. Let’s see if UVA can keep upnow.

Part of running a business is risk management. To many good business programs out there to risk a second hurdle to get into a business program.

Waiting one year or two years to clear the hurdle does not change the equation. No value in the change unless this is a path to direct admit and some senior leader at UVA is slow to grasp the advantage of direct admit.

Exactly, Which tells me that any investment in such a "business school" is a non sequitor, regarding UVA. They just are not a thing, when it comes to truly business minded individuals, and they are not on the radar of those who are above and beyond. McIntyre misjudged and missed the boat - they would fail their own metric.