Colleges without overzealous “honor codes” or “honor councils”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid really liked schools with an honor code (like Haverford and Davidson).

The tour guides gave examples of how you could leave your backpack in the library and come back without it being stolen. Or one incident where someone found a ten dollar bill on the ground and tacked it to a bulletin board for the owner to retrieve it.

What kind of kid would be worried about a place that values honor and integrity?

Lol this is so naive. Bad stuff happens everywhere regardless and of an “honor code”. But being judged by your equally immature peers when you’re growing up is a great way to favor the already privileged and protected and increase suicide in an already anxious and depressed generation.

How are kids supposed to learn how to handle adult responsibilities if they are not given any?
I assume there are adults nearby if any abuses are in the offing.

Have you heard how the FACULTY and ADMINISTRATORS given such responsibilities handle them?
See: the Hunting Ground.

(Maybe you are afraid that your donations and connections are less likely to sway college students than college administrators, should Larlo get himself into hot water?)

No, I’m just always pissed at how much connections coddle other people. We have none. My college kids are both phi beta kappa though - sorry to let you down about them being ill-behaved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid really liked schools with an honor code (like Haverford and Davidson).

The tour guides gave examples of how you could leave your backpack in the library and come back without it being stolen. Or one incident where someone found a ten dollar bill on the ground and tacked it to a bulletin board for the owner to retrieve it.

What kind of kid would be worried about a place that values honor and integrity?

Imagine being unable to distinguish between having an authoritarian honor code and valuing honor and integrity.

There are lots of schools where you can leave belongings unattended and it has nothing to do with having an honor code. It has to do with community, financial stability, and, well, security. Most students at most colleges are not going to steal someone's backpack.

OP, most places are not as over the top as UVA. My kid attends a Quaker high school and we were both pretty disgusted with UVAs code. But I wouldn't plan a college search around "honor codes". I would find schools you like and then do some research to find out how they handle issues related to conduct and integrity. I don't know about Haverford's. I know that Davidson has one but it sounds more focused on restorative justice than punishment.

[Anonymous]

So is this going to be an anti-UVA thread even though it was already pointed out that UVA students changed the honor code?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVA students voted to make the honor code less severe in the last year or so. Some alumni are furious.

I read they have now gone back to severe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVa is notorious for this.

I was involved with an honor code violation while in grad school at UVA. The kid was dead to rights guilty, was expelled and later on successfully sued the university. People probably thought the kid was innocent after that.

[Anonymous]

Expulsion is back at UVA

https://uvamagazine.org/articles/new_honor_code_restores_expulsion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UVa is notorious for this.

I was involved with an honor code violation while in grad school at UVA. The kid was dead to rights guilty, was expelled and later on successfully sued the university. People probably thought the kid was innocent after that.

If they’re accusing kids of cheating there better be 100% proof with no doubt that that the kid cheating, and the cheating better be material. I would be furious if I’d spent $60k on UVA and my junior were expelled. Good on that kid for suing. The stakes are high and the school is on a power trip to kill students’ grad school prospects, and even their prospects for graduating college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UVa is notorious for this.

I was involved with an honor code violation while in grad school at UVA. The kid was dead to rights guilty, was expelled and later on successfully sued the university. People probably thought the kid was innocent after that.

Maybe that was cute & fun in the 90s. Not anymore when college is $40k+/year.

[Anonymous]

The point is that the UVA honor system now has a multiple outcomes for someone found responsible. Before, it was just permanent expulsion. Now there’s a way a student can acknowledge they broke the code and remain (Informed Retraction) and a leave of absence for cases that go to the council/jury.

I don’t think any faculty or TA quickly or eagerly reports to honor. It’s done after documentation has been made. They have evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Expulsion is back at UVA

https://uvamagazine.org/articles/new_honor_code_restores_expulsion

I think you missed some stuff. There’s a lot on the table.

Codifies multiple sanctions.
The Honor Committee gains broad discretion in fashioning penalties, starting with rehabilitative education and having offenders make amends, escalating to temporary or permanent removal from the University community.


Tightens jury composition.
An accused student can no longer opt to have a jury composed entirely of randomly selected peers adjudicate one’s case. A hybrid of seven randomly selected students and five Honor Committee representatives will be empaneled instead, with conviction requiring nine votes.


Separates sentencing from conviction.
If a jury votes to convict, the proceedings move to a separate sentencing phase. It falls to the five Honor representatives on the jury to determine punishment, but with an important check on their ability to expel a student. For a first-time offender, the Honor Committee members need the consent of at least three of the lay jurors from the guilt phase to mete out the System’s maximum penalty.


Restores and expands opportunities to admit guilt.
By removing the threat of expulsion, last year’s amendment negated the chief incentive for confessing and avoiding the risk of a conviction in an Honor hearing. The new system of tougher sanctions and greater jury oversight would seem to correct that. The new constitution goes on to expand the timeframe in which the Honor Committee will accept confessions in exchange for lesser penalties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Expulsion is back at UVA

https://uvamagazine.org/articles/new_honor_code_restores_expulsion

I think you missed some stuff. There’s a lot on the table.

Codifies multiple sanctions.
The Honor Committee gains broad discretion in fashioning penalties, starting with rehabilitative education and having offenders make amends, escalating to temporary or permanent removal from the University community.


Tightens jury composition.
An accused student can no longer opt to have a jury composed entirely of randomly selected peers adjudicate one’s case. A hybrid of seven randomly selected students and five Honor Committee representatives will be empaneled instead, with conviction requiring nine votes.


Separates sentencing from conviction.
If a jury votes to convict, the proceedings move to a separate sentencing phase. It falls to the five Honor representatives on the jury to determine punishment, but with an important check on their ability to expel a student. For a first-time offender, the Honor Committee members need the consent of at least three of the lay jurors from the guilt phase to mete out the System’s maximum penalty.


Restores and expands opportunities to admit guilt.
By removing the threat of expulsion, last year’s amendment negated the chief incentive for confessing and avoiding the risk of a conviction in an Honor hearing. The new system of tougher sanctions and greater jury oversight would seem to correct that. The new constitution goes on to expand the timeframe in which the Honor Committee will accept confessions in exchange for lesser penalties.

Insanity to all of it

[Anonymous]

I slight tangent ... imo colleges in the NE have a tradition of Good Samaritan policies. We're in Virginia and it is not the case here.

[Anonymous]

I’m baffled by this thread. People actually want a school with no honor code and no integrity? They feel tuition is too expensive so there should be no consequences should their kid cheat? Who are you people? I am a white collar prosecutor. I suspect I will meet many of your offspring in coming years.

[Anonymous]

I know a lot of adults with anxiety who worry about this sort of stuff. They’re the people least likely to cheat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m baffled by this thread. People actually want a school with no honor code and no integrity? They feel tuition is too expensive so there should be no consequences should their kid cheat? Who are you people? I am a white collar prosecutor. I suspect I will meet many of your offspring in coming years.

This. I get being worried about unfair or overzealous councils. But how is that in any way connected to the cost of college and the idea that one is a “paying customer”???