Private Schools Wokeness Over the Top

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

OP thanks for actually bringing up some specific controversy. I had not heard about this before but I totally agree with you that the reaction to what this professor did was totally nuts.

[Anonymous]

I find Matt Yglesias to be so tedious. People who become commentary writers before they are 30 should be required to do something else from 35-50 imo. Something calcifies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there actually some “fancy pants private school” policy or event that people want to debate about as being “too woke?” People already have claws out and hurling insults, but it’s already getting boring because there is no defined topic of debate.

Fair point, but I actually think this thread (so far) has been less insult-hurling than might be expected. Maybe a few things were unnecessary (e.g. the FoxNews thing, the thing about Matt Yglesias, and the unnecessarily patronizing use of the word "adorable" [which I immediately regretted]). I do think identifying specific, objective things that have actually happened at a school (not just a fear that something might happen) would move the conversation forward.

OP identified the academic freedom crisis at Hamline, but that's a college situation, not a K-12. And, to be fair, most of those in the academic world (who otherwise overwhelmingly tend to support DEI) agree that the administration made a terrible decision. This was a case of an administration implementing a customer-service model of problem-solving (not upsetting the paying student-customers is the most important criterion in decision-making) rather than truly trying to implement DEI values. A student complained, and that panicked the administration, lest the school be regarded as intolerant. That's not a smart or nuanced approached to an issue of academic freedom.

What has *actually happened* at your area K-12 that has people genuinely concerned that "wokeness" has gone too far. And please no vague nonsense about making kids feel guilty about being white or whatnot. An actual, specific incident, lesson, event, or policy implementation that caused your concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent from a foreign background, this article resonated with me. I feel lost here and feel like I no longer fit in.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/who-is-included-by-inclusive-language

The author of the article cites a few Washington DC schools:
“Georgetown Day and Sidwell Friends here in D.C..”

It doesn’t seem like any of these schools hide the fact that they embrace diversity and equity , etc. I think it’s great that many schools are embracing these things. If a person doesn’t like a school’s ideologies they can obviously pick other schools..

It’s beyond diversity and equity. Its a religion

They're private schools. Even if it's a religion, private schools are allowed to have religious views. Find another school if you don't like it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

OP, I am with you. I applied to private schools last year and opted against it because I couldn't imagine spending $50K per kid (I have 3) to put up with this over the top wokeness. I've tapped out. I'm done with it. It's too much. And then to pay serious money to have it forced upon me and my family? No, thank you. I opted for public and while it has some flaws, and least I'm not paying $150k/year for lectures on why I should be calling myself latinX.

My DH is also Arab having moved to the US shortly before we were married. He doesn't understand any of what's going on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

Harsh question: Why should someone who claims to be “from a foreign background “ and from a religion that hardly represents a common viewpoint in the US expect to “fit in” — or even want to “fit in”? Surely you must realize that it’s the culture and values behind what you deem “wokeness” that has given you and your kids not just the chance of fitting in, but of being accepted at all by schools and universities that, not too long ago, we’re almost exclusively white, male, American, and, in many cases aggressively Christian?

OP again. Yes my kids will never fit in. My problem with woke progressives is they like speaking for us non-white people. They speak over us. They do not listen to us. It's still Western imperialism but of a different kind. There is a balance between the extreme agenda of woke progressives and that of conservatives. Neither of these extremes represent me. Also what I can't stand about this new left is how they completely ignore class and focus on dividing people into smaller and smaller groups so that no mass solidarity can ever exist. I'm not a fan of Huntington but I agree with the criticism of progressive ideology that I read in this article: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2023/01/why-china-loves-conservatives

"Progressive liberal ideology seeks to downplay cultural wholes. It envisions the world in universal, globalist terms, while reducing national ­societies to collections of atomized individuals. In its advanced form as identity politics, this version of liberalism views individuals as members of intersecting identity categories—categories that are not real communities and cultures, but rather demographic abstractions such as “Asian American” and “LGBTQIA+.” The word “community” may be added to such abstractions—as in “LGBTQIA+­ ­community”—but it is empty, for none of the identity-­politics categories are concrete communities with shared cultural lives. Indeed, the pseudo-­solidarity of identity politics further atomizes the individual by undermining the legitimacy of inherited cultures. This outcome is not accidental. Progressive liberals seek to weaken the hold of larger cultural collectives by erasing them from their accounts of the social world, accounts they disseminate using their dominance in the West’s humanities and social science departments."

I don't care much about cultural collectives but the continuous focus on specific identity categories undermines solidarity amongst different identity groups which is necessary if we want to effectuate change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

There is no indoctrination going on or is it treated as a religion. You sound like FOX news.

This is the problem. Every response to a critique of what's going on mentions fox news. I'm not republican. I don't watch fox news. In fact I hate them - they are racist, islamophobic, and support numerous wars in the Middle East. What is happening is not normal. Again, did you hear about the Hamline University incident where they fired a professor. Thankfully, the largest Muslim organization in the country also criticized Hamline University. The Right jumped on the issue and criticized Islam but if you read what the student actually said, you will see her using all the woke buzz words.

When CAIR came out in defense of the art prof, you know that the university had lost the plot. Their statement was very reasonable and sound.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there actually some “fancy pants private school” policy or event that people want to debate about as being “too woke?” People already have claws out and hurling insults, but it’s already getting boring because there is no defined topic of debate.

Fair point, but I actually think this thread (so far) has been less insult-hurling than might be expected. Maybe a few things were unnecessary (e.g. the FoxNews thing, the thing about Matt Yglesias, and the unnecessarily patronizing use of the word "adorable" [which I immediately regretted]). I do think identifying specific, objective things that have actually happened at a school (not just a fear that something might happen) would move the conversation forward.

OP identified the academic freedom crisis at Hamline, but that's a college situation, not a K-12. And, to be fair, most of those in the academic world (who otherwise overwhelmingly tend to support DEI) agree that the administration made a terrible decision. This was a case of an administration implementing a customer-service model of problem-solving (not upsetting the paying student-customers is the most important criterion in decision-making) rather than truly trying to implement DEI values. A student complained, and that panicked the administration, lest the school be regarded as intolerant. That's not a smart or nuanced approached to an issue of academic freedom.

What has *actually happened* at your area K-12 that has people genuinely concerned that "wokeness" has gone too far. And please no vague nonsense about making kids feel guilty about being white or whatnot. An actual, specific incident, lesson, event, or policy implementation that caused your concern.

OP here. Your critique is valid. I'm not talking about a specific incident but the overall direction that American culture is going in. What happens in universities is relevant because it trickles down to private schools and to the culture in general. I mentioned Hamline University because it was recent. Another story I thought was crazy was some student in a university accusing a janitor of being racist and then the janitor being fired - I think it was pre covid so forgetting the exact story. The class dynamic was insane there.

I don't have any specific examples over what is happening in k-12 schools - though I do recall reading some article on Dalton in NYC? I can't find it though. It's just the general sense I have that this country is going in the wrong direction. I am thinking of pulling my kids out and just going with a regular old public school. The same BS is there too but at least its free! Plus at the very least there is less hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

There is no indoctrination going on or is it treated as a religion. You sound like FOX news.

+1

These schools are trying to provide a welcoming learning environment for all comers, not just the children of the rich/elite. The use of the term "woke" is really a tell in terms of where the OP is coming from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent from a foreign background, this article resonated with me. I feel lost here and feel like I no longer fit in.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/who-is-included-by-inclusive-language

What this "Slow Boring" author seems not to understand or account for is that elite high schools are responding to the preferences of elite colleges, because the sole purpose of an elite high school is to help its students gain admission into an elite college. If it cannot fulfill this singular purpose it will not survive, no matter what other acculturation in the norms of fancy manners and society it may otherwise provide. College admission is king.

And what this author similarly seems to not understand about elite college "wokeness" is that it is the product not only of demands from the culture at large (and, crucially, the demographic of affluent teenagers that elite colleges cater to) but also its highly educated and abnormally intelligent faculty, who often lead the charge in determining intellectual and cultural norms on campus. Although this imperfect attempt at semi-meritocracy has been under attack in America for decades, for the most part smart people still run universities (not necessarily in the administration buildings, but in the lecture halls and research labs). So colleges tend to be on the progressive cutting edge, because the more educated you are, the more likely you are to hold progressive beliefs. If you really understand systemic racial and economic oppression you are going to support efforts to dismantle it (unless you are a sociopath or otherwise lacking in normal moral sensibilities, super-ego, empathy, or conscience). Even if those efforts to dismantle become absurd or performative (as, of course, they eventually do as dumber and less genuinely other-regarding people jump onto the PC train) the efforts are rooted in the result of education itself: a deeper, more nuanced, and more accurate understanding of how the world actually works.

If you don't like it, don't fret: the pendulum will swing again because not everyone with power and influence in American culture is smart or well-educated, or equipped with a functioning super-ego.

This is just like saying people who don't understand Puritanism are people who aren't close to God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

Harsh question: Why should someone who claims to be “from a foreign background “ and from a religion that hardly represents a common viewpoint in the US expect to “fit in” — or even want to “fit in”? Surely you must realize that it’s the culture and values behind what you deem “wokeness” that has given you and your kids not just the chance of fitting in, but of being accepted at all by schools and universities that, not too long ago, we’re almost exclusively white, male, American, and, in many cases aggressively Christian?

The phenomenon of dividing and atomizing people (voters) into smaller and smaller categories certainly isn't unique to the progressive left. As a political strategy it was pioneered by Karl Rove in the 80s and 90s as a way to increase GOP voter loyalty and tribal identity. "Pro-life" v. "Pro-choice" wasn't an important political or identity characteristic before Rove understood its divisive power. Now it is so tribal that it is on the precipice of causing a schism in the American Catholic Church. Families and communities are divided into tribal political categories now, and the DEI controversy is (mostly) an proxy war for that same "us v. them" political strategy that Rove masterminded.

OP again. Yes my kids will never fit in. My problem with woke progressives is they like speaking for us non-white people. They speak over us. They do not listen to us. It's still Western imperialism but of a different kind. There is a balance between the extreme agenda of woke progressives and that of conservatives. Neither of these extremes represent me. Also what I can't stand about this new left is how they completely ignore class and focus on dividing people into smaller and smaller groups so that no mass solidarity can ever exist. I'm not a fan of Huntington but I agree with the criticism of progressive ideology that I read in this article: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2023/01/why-china-loves-conservatives

"Progressive liberal ideology seeks to downplay cultural wholes. It envisions the world in universal, globalist terms, while reducing national ­societies to collections of atomized individuals. In its advanced form as identity politics, this version of liberalism views individuals as members of intersecting identity categories—categories that are not real communities and cultures, but rather demographic abstractions such as “Asian American” and “LGBTQIA+.” The word “community” may be added to such abstractions—as in “LGBTQIA+­ ­community”—but it is empty, for none of the identity-­politics categories are concrete communities with shared cultural lives. Indeed, the pseudo-­solidarity of identity politics further atomizes the individual by undermining the legitimacy of inherited cultures. This outcome is not accidental. Progressive liberals seek to weaken the hold of larger cultural collectives by erasing them from their accounts of the social world, accounts they disseminate using their dominance in the West’s humanities and social science departments."

I don't care much about cultural collectives but the continuous focus on specific identity categories undermines solidarity amongst different identity groups which is necessary if we want to effectuate change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

OP, I am with you. I applied to private schools last year and opted against it because I couldn't imagine spending $50K per kid (I have 3) to put up with this over the top wokeness. I've tapped out. I'm done with it. It's too much. And then to pay serious money to have it forced upon me and my family? No, thank you. I opted for public and while it has some flaws, and least I'm not paying $150k/year for lectures on why I should be calling myself latinX.

My DH is also Arab having moved to the US shortly before we were married. He doesn't understand any of what's going on here.

Yes! I think you get me. All the Arabs I speak to (specifically those that are not born and raised in the US) thinks that this is all over the top. Also I'm worried about how we keep creating smaller and smaller identity based groups here. As an Arab I look at what happened in Lebanon, Iraq and Syria and think hmm maybe this isn't the way to go. Again I am staunchly anti-imperalist, pro-palestinian... all of this stuff.. so I'm not coming at this from the right. I just think progressives have gone overboard and this hyper focus on identity and the competition for who is the greater victim is just too much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there actually some “fancy pants private school” policy or event that people want to debate about as being “too woke?” People already have claws out and hurling insults, but it’s already getting boring because there is no defined topic of debate.

Ya, the ones where the kids go to school dressed as cats and pee in the litter in the corner of the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

I agree with you about the class angle. I visited a snooty school in Rockville. They bragged about their "diversity," which meant they allowed rich, brown people to send their kids there. There wasn't economic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there actually some “fancy pants private school” policy or event that people want to debate about as being “too woke?” People already have claws out and hurling insults, but it’s already getting boring because there is no defined topic of debate.

Fair point, but I actually think this thread (so far) has been less insult-hurling than might be expected. Maybe a few things were unnecessary (e.g. the FoxNews thing, the thing about Matt Yglesias, and the unnecessarily patronizing use of the word "adorable" [which I immediately regretted]). I do think identifying specific, objective things that have actually happened at a school (not just a fear that something might happen) would move the conversation forward.

OP identified the academic freedom crisis at Hamline, but that's a college situation, not a K-12. And, to be fair, most of those in the academic world (who otherwise overwhelmingly tend to support DEI) agree that the administration made a terrible decision. This was a case of an administration implementing a customer-service model of problem-solving (not upsetting the paying student-customers is the most important criterion in decision-making) rather than truly trying to implement DEI values. A student complained, and that panicked the administration, lest the school be regarded as intolerant. That's not a smart or nuanced approached to an issue of academic freedom.

What has *actually happened* at your area K-12 that has people genuinely concerned that "wokeness" has gone too far. And please no vague nonsense about making kids feel guilty about being white or whatnot. An actual, specific incident, lesson, event, or policy implementation that caused your concern.

OP here. Your critique is valid. I'm not talking about a specific incident but the overall direction that American culture is going in. What happens in universities is relevant because it trickles down to private schools and to the culture in general. I mentioned Hamline University because it was recent. Another story I thought was crazy was some student in a university accusing a janitor of being racist and then the janitor being fired - I think it was pre covid so forgetting the exact story. The class dynamic was insane there.

I don't have any specific examples over what is happening in k-12 schools - though I do recall reading some article on Dalton in NYC? I can't find it though. It's just the general sense I have that this country is going in the wrong direction. I am thinking of pulling my kids out and just going with a regular old public school. The same BS is there too but at least its free! Plus at the very least there is less hypocrisy.

DP. But has something actually happened at your kids’ private school that made you concerned? Just remember that it is often the more extreme people who make the most noise, as in the Hamline case you mentioned. I certainly wouldn’t let these nutso cases influence such a big decision to pull my kid out of a school when most parents, teachers, and faculty are probably reasonable.