Club Volleyball - rate your club pros/cons
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Anonymous
They’d be in the lower tier bucket |
Anonymous
+1000 this is a near-perfect summary. The only thing I would add - there is a lot of instability in the DMV region volleyball club's right now. Some of that seems to be a post-COVID shakeup , but also volleyball clubs rise and fall everywhere. NVVA and Top Team are excellent examples of how rapidly clubs, even from Tier 2, can decline. So I'm looking at this in terms of which volleyball clubs on-the-rise vs. clubs on the decline. Word on the street (aka around Cassel's) seems to be that some clubs are hemorrhaging talent to Metro/Paramount while others are more quietly building home-gown teams that successfully compete for National bids. Most Stable Powerhouse: Metro Relatively Stable: Paramount, MD Juniors, MVSA On the Rise: Liberty Elite, East Coast Power (ECP), Virginia Volleyball Academy (VAVA), Vienna Elite -- see national bid numbers & aes win rates in past two years versus those in group below: On the Decline: Virginia Elite, Virginia Juniors, St James Interested to hear what others think! |
Anonymous
I’m wouldn’t agree that Juniors and VAE are on the decline. More competition yes, but everyone in the vball world knows that the best players in the region end up at Metro, Paramount, VAE and Juniors. Probably in that order. |
Anonymous
And the point about win ratios and national bids is a bit flawed - all depends on who you are playing and what your division is. |
Anonymous
| Anyone know anything about Virginia United. Looks like they are having a 12s and 15s team this year. They turned into an academy after Covid, but wondering if anyone was with them precovid. |
Anonymous
| NP - are there any clubs that are good for boys? Right now he plays on a coed rec team, but that will change come middle school. |
Anonymous
This isn't a bad list, but its missing clubs and is very general. First, the Tier 1/2 clubs listed mostly offer only a single team at each age group, that's 60 players out of more than 1200 players of that age in the CHRVA region. They aren't an option to 95% of club players. And almost none of their players (with the exception of MD Jrs, maybe) came up through their own development program -- they were all recruited from other clubs. Metro/Paramount are always going after best talent at other clubs -- and they have spots open because players decide to leave or are getting cut. This year feels the same as any other year in that respect. Second, measuring on bids is not good. There are 120+ teams in the CHRVA region for each age group, 3-4 get bids including through USAV regional qualifiers. For the top players, those things may matter, but for the vast majority of players its unlikely to be part of the conversation. And AES is even worse -- an 90% win team that plays club-level matches will rank above a 60% win team that only plays open. Finally, inconsistent coaching quality is the norm, not the exception -- and it impacts every club. There aren't enough good coaches available, and coaching club is a huge commitment for little to no pay. The best way to figure out the club for you is to go to clinics, talk to coaches, talk to parents of current club players, etc. With a little careful listening, you can tell pretty quickly if a club is or isn't a fit. If the coach is good and the players are a good social and athletic fit for your child, then the club is probably going to be good for you. FYI: If you want a different way to rank clubs, you can also look at the high-level HS varsity programs in the DMV region, and where their players come from. Its a good way to figure out where the talent is being developed and/or where it lands once its developed. The top independent schools are all recruiting from the same club talent pool, and a lot of their players predominately come from a small number of clubs -- Metro, MD Jrs, MOCO, Paramount, VA Elite, with a few ECP, MVSA and VA Juniors too. You can look at public schools too, but club location has a huge impact there (e.g. Langley has lots of VA Elite). |
nobodyspecial
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| very informative thread. Thanks to all those posting great information about their experiences. It's very helpful. |
Anonymous
As far as summaries go, this is pretty good. However, Metro and Paramount have clearly separated themselves from all the other clubs in tnhe CHRVA Region; only difference is Metro has been around for a long time (20+ years, whereas Paramount is only in year 7). And in many ways, Paramount is equal to Metro now (Paramount and Metro are the only two CHRVA clubs to have every team qualify for USAV Nationals in 2022). Paramount's 17s team dominated Metro 17 Travel at CHRVA Regionals, their 13s also beat Metro, and as a club Paramount had multiple top 10 finishes in the Open Division of Qualifiers (Paramount 15s also earned an open bid in 2021).. My DD has never played for Paramount, but I've never understood why people think the Paramount coaches treat the players any differently than the Metro Travel coaches treat their players (have you seen Metro 16s coach be escorted out of the convention center by police before?). That intensity just comes with the territory of playing in and competing at the highest level of the sport (which only Metro and Paramount do in this area; VAE also does but their teams get demolished). If the Paramount coaches are so over the top, then why don't they have a constant turnover of players? Kids and families scratch and claw to get on and stay on their teams, which wouldn't be the case if that stigma were true. Intensity just comes with the territory at those two clubs. VA Jrs. is definitely on the decline. They play in the lower divisions of qualifiers, and most smart parents and players see through all the hype that their higher-ups like to perpetuate. VAE has good training and at least challenges their teams by having them play in Open, but their teams get demolished and it's demoralizing for the players and families to constantly finish near the bottom at every tournament. They have had some phenomenal players come through their program, but they are few and far between now. Vienna Elite usually has a couple competitive teams. VAVA is definitely on the rise, and I see them overtaking VAJrs in the next 2-3 years. VAVA's coaches left VAJrs because of how poorly they were treated by the higher ups there, and they've done a good job of building. They're still not at the Jrs or VAE level, but they're making respectable progress. MVSA is phenomenal at the younger age groups, but once the kids get to U14, the quality of their teams decline and most of the girls move onto bigger clubs. |
Anonymous
I think you are right on about certain coaches at those clubs. But the reason they don't have a large turnover of players is because the players need the team more than the team needs them -- you don't even consider those two clubs unless you want to play in college (preferably D1), which is remarkably hard to do, and the players think they need to play on the best team in the area to maximize their recruiting opportunities. Yet even with the power dynamic strongly in the clubs favor, players still leave those clubs. Both clubs are out searching for new players on multiple teams right now -- because they already know some players are leaving. Regarding screaming, there are lots of ways to motivate players, and the screaming approach has gone out of favor for a reason -- it may motivate a player if done once or twice, but it actually reduces motivation when it is frequent. There will always be more players to take their place, so the behavior just continues. But it doesn't have to come with the territory. There are a number of great players in the area that don't play for those teams, and I would guess that one of the reasons they don't is because the coaching style (and team dynamic caused by the players) doesn't work for them. If you watch the D1 college game a lot, you'll notice that coaches rarely ever scream at their players. They may get mad at the refs sometime, but even that is muted. The players on those teams are often even more intense and the overall team skill level is significantly above that of a U16/17/18 Metro Travel/Paramount team -- so if the "intense coach" style you see in club worked, why don't we see it in college? Virtually every club coach at the upper programs gets intense at some point -- they care about their teams and their performance. But if the intensity/screaming/etc. is the normal coaching approach, then you have to be certain your DD can handle it. No level of club volleyball is worth the potential self-esteem and mental health issues that type of coach can cause for a player. |
Anonymous
+1. Agree with all of this. And for the PP who says there is no turnover at these clubs because maybe the "intensity just comes with the territory" - There is actually a lot of turnover at Paramount in particular because the girls get the crap beaten out of them mentally. It's not just intense coaching - for some of these coaches it's way beyond that. They had players at every age group quit before the end of the season last few years and a whole lot don't come back by choice. DD did not play there but did play at another top tier club and now playing in college. She knew many Paramount players/former players through HS varsity and the club circuit who talked pretty openly about it. Watch some of their coaches on the sidelines at tournaments -- they don't even try to hide the crazy. |
Anonymous
I think you're exaggerating the turnover at Paramount. Their top players do not leave, and if they had as much turnover as you are implying and are as over the top as you are implying, how do their teams have so much success? My DD has attended clinics there but we know she'd probably never make their team. While there have certainly been girls at Paramount who have quit over the years, I'd say the vast majority of the turnover is new talent replacing the bottom half of talent on the teams from the previous season. If Paramount's top talent was hemorrhaging every season, how could they possibly be at the point where all their teams earned bids to USAV Nationals the past two seasons (Metro is the only other club to do this)? How is Paramount the only club in the region besides Metro actually competing and winning at the open level? The players who quit Paramount/Metro/Jrs are usually the players who are not getting the playing time they want (for example, Jrs 17s team two years ago had 6 girls quit before Nationals, not because of intense coaching but because of the games the coach played and the empty promises left on the table). Metro will stick 15 players on all their travel teams, and there are always 4-5 players who never see the court (Metro 16s coach is the most maniacal coach in the entire region, imo). And yet, those girls scratch and claw to get on and stay on all those club's teams. But as PP said, the great thing about our region is there are options for everybody; if you don't like the intense style, there are plenty of quality options besides Metro and Paramount. If you want to play D1 AND win, though, Metro and Paramount are separating themselves from the rest at this point in time (Metro obviously the cream of the crop as of now). You can get one without the other at some of the other clubs in our area (e.g., the recruiting without the winning, like at VAE), but imo Metro and Paramount are the only two where you can get the winning and the recruiting at this moment in time. |
Anonymous
When the PP are talking about "Open" in the context of the club volleyball scene, they are referring to teams playing in the Open Division of National Qualifiers (where the best teams in the country compete). In our area, only Metro, Paramount and VAE put their teams in the Open Division of National Qualifiers, and only Metro and Paramount have success at that Open level (VAE's teams routinely get destroyed at those tournaments). In terms of regional/local tournaments, there is an Open Division in those tournaments, but that is not the same as Open at a national qualifier. Many of the tier 3 clubs that were mentioned on PP's list will put their teams in Open at the regional/local tournaments, but then put their teams in the USA (2nd division) or American (3rd division) at national qualifiers. Your DD can definitely play collegiately at the D3 level for most of those Tier 3 clubs mentioned. My best recommendation would be to have your DD join the team that you think is better for her individual development and the team that will provide her with better training. Since your daughter has only been playing for a little over a year, going to a club that will develop her with good training is the most important thing for her development in the sport, imo. |
Anonymous
Bolded the important point -- the reason they stay competitive is because they are constantly recruiting from other clubs to pull talent to them. They don't have development teams, so they rely on other clubs to do it. If you see club volleyball as a tiered set of stepping stones from the bottom (developmental) to the top (recruiting and bids), then this is fine. But as mentioned earlier in this thread -- that doesn't apply to most of the club players in the area.
+1 regarding playing time, and it reinforces your earlier comment. But there are also players that have left those programs for coaching "misalignment", and a lot of others that don't consider them because of the same issues.
It depends on the team at the particular club, there are teams that are highly competitive at certain clubs -- playing open level, making it to upper brackets in multi-days, etc, but not winning the entire tournament. If a team is competing in open level at big tournaments and winning more than they are losing, its likely that team is pretty good. Its also likely that there is a good mix of talent and coaching, because those clubs can't rely on recruiting players to build their teams -- they have to develop them. Most parents underestimate how much effort goes into developing great volleyball players. One of the questions we asked when searching for clubs was "When players leave your club (or consider leaving), where are they going?". If they say Metro/Paramount/VA Elite, then you've probably found a club that is really good at developing top talent. We also asked was "How many of your top team players have been with you for 3+ years? How many played on a development team for your club?". This is often the most important question, development + player loyalty usually indicates the club is doing something right. |
Anonymous
Just a quick point on VAE - at the upper age groups, they actually don’t get destroyed at all - they are certainly not winning or top 10 in qualifiers, but routinely middle of the pack at 17 and 18s. You also have to remember that VAE is a college recruiting machine (see their commitment list) and play in open to have their players get as many eyeballs on them as possible. |