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Elementary School-Aged Kids
How to fix? 6 & 8 year old wild and inconsiderate
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Anonymous
| What kind of activities are they involved in? If you find the right place, a lot of martial arts studios emphasize respect (parents have to fill out sheets indicating that kids did chores, were respectful, etc.) and that can help. I don't know about 6 and 8 year olds, but when my son was 4 it was a real incentive for some behaviour changes. |
Anonymous
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10:19: you must have had some time of it at home:
"I was the oldest of four and I STRONGLY disagree with OP making her oldest the leader in general but especially under these circumstances. It is not fair to the oldest to be asked to set the example and all the rest. It could make him feel more burdened, the last thing he needs right now. It triangulates authority. It could lead to more fights and resentment from younger siblings." 9:56 here: Thank you - because your comment made me realize that I wasn't clear enough. My post was about being responsible and helping out and sharing some examples from our home of the kinds of things an 8 year old can do which is more than a 6 year old. I did write that a 6 year old should have chores. The messages are the same to both kids. While OP may already be doing this, from her post, it does sound as if the older boys are running wild and not working with her to pull together as a family. But you took the one word "leader" and decided that being the leader equals being the boss of the other kids. I did not think I implied that given the rest of the post. The person who has to assert the authority in this situation is mom. But I do believe older kids are entitled to some privileges and in this case, maybe some special attention. Only OP can say who spins up who in the sibling relationship, but most people would think the eldest child is the one leading the younger child into trouble. If so, that child needs the extra time and attention to get them to quit that behavior. So let me clarify from my perspective: my best friend growing up was number 2 of 8 children. It was expected in her house that the older children had certain responsibilities and by carrying those out, set an example for the younger children to do their part also. But never were they in charge of bossing around their sibs or "triangulating authority" from those parents. When you have a very large family, you have to build in structure or things don't work well. You are reading my post with the filter of your own experience. |
Anonymous
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Of course I am reading the post through my filter of experience. You're giving advice through the filter of your experience, it's how life works.
I am guessing you are not the oldest. This is something I've discussed with a number of adults through the years, the delicate balance of meting out responsibilities based on birth order. So many oldest felt they were held to a higher standard, given too much authority, asked to be the example at the risk of being allowed to be themselves. It's not just me! Also with eight, you don't get the sibling rivalry you'd get here with two relatively close in age. (We don't ask third graders to mentor first graders, do we? They don't have the skills for it.) Of course the oldest gets to do certain things ahead of the others, that's the way life works. As for suggesting that OP make her oldest the leader, I really think that now, with the boys in crisis, with this authority vacuum, is the last thing they need. The way I read the situation, the boys feel emotionally abandoned. Dad's away, Mom's overwhelmed. What they need now is to stabilize. I would treat the boys as equals and not get into hierarchical parenting. If this were a larger family, say five or six, I could see giving the oldest certain responsibilities. But not here. |
Anonymous
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OP here - thanks for all the suggestions from all who have posted. FWIW, we do treat both boys pretty equally in terms of responsibilities and leadership. I don't ask the 8 yo to set an example for the 6 yo - I ask them both to set an example for the toddler or other younger kids. Some privileges are tied to age and demonstrated responsibility, others just to demonstrated responsibility. My husband was oldest, I was not - and I have seen how responsible he still feels for his younger brother (his mom did the whole - you are oldest, you are responsible for keeping him safe). Therefore, we NEVER ask the kids to be responsible for keeping another safe or directing others (although if I duck into the house for something, I will ask them to holler if the toddler heads for something she shouldn't - but I always run back out and handle it myself). I will be spending more time stressing the need to make sure their actions are safe around others and be aware of their surroundings, but that is a bit different, I think.
The weekend is actually going pretty well - because things are so controlled right now with no distractions, I have a lot more opportunity to oversee what is going on, and intervene if I see something I don't like. (ex. this morning 6 yo asked if he could use 8 yo's toy after completing requested tasks - 8 yo said no - I confirmed 8 yo wasn't going to use toy, and pointed out that denying use of a toy just because you can is not kind behavior, and not what I expect to see.). We've also started a tracking system - umprompted, positive behaviors get 1 point, behaviors that violate the rules or are unacceptable, lose 2 points after the first reminder (we are a tad more lenient with the 6 yo on this than the 8 yo just due to the belief that the 8 yo is old enough to better monitor his own behavior). This is going to take a while I know, and my biggest challenge will be consistency - I really appreciate all the supportive comments and helpful suggestions from each of the PPs! |
Anonymous
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OP, haven't had time to read the other responses and I imagine they are going to be more detailed and nuanced than mine but just wanted to emphasize three things:
1) If you threaten a child with punishment for bad behavior, be sure that the punishment is one you are willing to follow through on and then follow through. So many of my friends yell at their kids but never actually punish them so the kid learns to disregard the yelling. 2) I read this advice in a magazine once and it struck me as profoundly true. When you set limits with people who previously have been able to run all over you, they are surprised. They figure that their strategy must not be working because they're not pushing it strongly enough so they increase their bad behavior under the assumption that intensifying it will win the day. Makes sense to me. So all this is to say that once you start setting limits with your kids, their reaction may be to behave even worse for awhile so you have to stay strong and be consistent. 3) I've seen kids who are out of control around their parents but who behave fine at school or with other people. Your kids are good kids and some part of them will welcome your parenting changes and you will have an effect on them. It will be hard but hang in there. You can do it! |
Anonymous
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It's kind of funny that I read this today, I just got back from an ADHD conference and discipline is always a hot topic with the ADHD community. I can prety much guarantee that if you can get ADHD kids to act in ways you want, you can definitely get "normal" kids to do what you want. First of all, punishment (ie taking away all the toys) isn't nearly effective in the long run as postive discipline which reinforces the behavior you want. Sometimes you need to do that to get an immediate response but it really isn't a long term strategy. There will come a point where you've taken away all that a kid holds dear and after that, they've got nothing left to lose. It's much better to recognize the behavior that you want rather than punishing behavior you don't. In fact, the same techniques work with adults.
I would highly recommend you take a Positive Discipline Class. Renee Hackney at Parenting Playgroups offers a one day session. It's also an 8 week course but it's probably easier for you to get a babysitter for one day rather than once a week fo 8 weeks. I would also get 1,2,3 Magic from the library and also look for Smart Discipline by Larry Koenig or From Chaos to Calm by Sharon Weiss (she's local and is fabulous). Kirk Martin (Celebrate Calm) also has some great stuff http://www.celebrate-adhd.com/index.html and he will be speaking (free!) on June 5 at Woodson High School http://www.fcps.edu/cco/prc/workshops.htm It's hard in the beginning but the payoffs can be amazing! |
Anonymous
ITA with all this poster here and above. If there is a way to simplify your routine, so you regain your sense of control. Maybe you have too many toys or stuff. I wouldn't get rid of for punishment, but just to keep clean up easier. Enlist the boys to help you, I bet they would love it. Also, my dh travels frequently and he chats it up with my boys beforehand to tell them to listen to mom. My guys are same age as yours and it's very hard on them now, even if dh is just away a week. Can you enlist your husband to send cards to them, leave them voice recordings, etc.? What about one on one time with both you and your dh? When dad is home, have one go out with him saturday for breakfast, and one on sunday. Then, when dh leaves, have babysitter sit one boy and toddler while you have special time with them. I think the poster is right that you need to have some fun. The boys could be fearing that dad won't come back, or there's a rift. You need to show them control and enlist their help. Have one prep dinner with you, pour cut ingredients into bowls, while the other one sets dishes. Have a family meeting this weekend and let them feel older and responsible, by having them join in the discussion about how they can help out without dad around. You are family and all need to pitch in. You must be exhausted. I know the prospect of trying to create some order out of chaos seems challenging, but once you get a schedule it will save you time. Look at it not as punishment, or work, but as an opportunity. As much as you can, have fun and be funny with them. Sometimes when my boys are being wild, I adopt an English nanny accent who instructs them to do things. Then, it's not mom but the silly, crazy nanny who wants something. It usually helps, because we usually end up laughing, and is better than me yelling or getting upset. Have fun this weekend, and best of luck! |
Anonymous
| I have never had a lot of luck with punishment (taking stuff away, etc.), but what seems to work wonders is a little guilt - maybe that is not the right word, but I will stop my kids in their tracks if I see bad behavior and point out why what they are doing is wrong, who it is hurting and why. And, I will also try to turn the tables "how would you feel if somebody did this to you?". And, in certain cases, I will tell them it is disrespectful to their family. My kids are usually very well behaved, but of course they have their moments. Even so, they are really nice kids and recognize when kids are hurting each other or behaving badly and will talk to me about it. (my mom worked full time and had 4 kids and this is what she did with us and I think it made me a better person.. |
Anonymous
| OP here again - rough week this week - the toddler is sick and teething (nice combo there) and the older two are doing some acting out against each other. But, not as bad as before. I am making more of an effort to be on top of things. My DH will be home this weekend, and we will set up for some 1-on-1 time for each of the boys with him, which they will all enjoy. We used to do more of that, but it has fallen by the side as things have gotten more hectic. I am also gathering up unloved toys and finding places to donate to (we have enough of them that some organization should be happy). I am slowly returning toys and privileges for good behavior, so hopefully that part of the positive interaction model will work. Hope that all of you have a great weekend! |
Anonymous
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NP here. Along the lines of some PPs advice to use rewards and positive discipline, one book/approach I've found helpful is Alan Kazdin, a Yale child psychiatrist:
http://www.alankazdin.com/index.htm In his book, he provides very specific techniques for setting up reward charts, and recommends rewarding positive behaviors. Basically, to get rid of a negative behavior (don't yell and freak out), you identify the opposite, positive behavior you want to see instead (remain calm), and you have a point system to give kids rewards for doing it. It does take some planning and organizing, and purchasing a range of cheap prizes the kid can purchase with awarded points. It did get my son's attention that if he did not fight when he had to leave a fun activity, he earned points he could use to get little lego sets. He was motivated by that, it helped. There is also a chapter or section that talks about setting up reward charts for siblings - the key there was that they get jointly rewarded to both maintaining whatever positive behavior -- gives them a reason to work together to behave well. Good luck, OP, with handling all that you are handling. best wishes. |
Anonymous
| I think one good day of total boredom will help. Maybe allow them to read, that is it. I agree that reward can be better than punishment to teach but they sound as if they have already been taught to do what the hell they want to do. They may take a little more than reward. There is nothing wrong with discipline. And every thing wrong with no discipline. Take control now before it becomes too late. Good luck. I know it is very hard on your own, my husband is gone at least 6 months a year. I have a 5 and 9 year old. They are not perfect and I do not expect them to be, but generally they are very well behaved children. I do not threaten them. I tell them what is expected and what will not be tolerated. If they choose to misbehave, the illness is on them. I do not apologize for taking______ away or not taking them to pool, movie or what ever it was we had planned. The choice is there. I tell them to choose wisely when making a decision on how to act. It is working pretty good. |
Anonymous
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Read: How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk
and anything by Alfred Kadzin-- something re parenting the defiant child. He has a book, and did a whole series on Slate.com |
Anonymous
| If all else fails: carry a bottle of tabasco sauce in your purse and reach for it if they do not follow orders after 2 requests. A wonderful mother with perfectly behaved children told me that one. I never have tried it because my son looked as though he was going to get ill when I mentioned it to him. |
Anonymous
| OP here - thanks again to all who provided advice. A brief update. We've seen a definite improvement in behavior over the last few weeks. I am making more of an effort to spend some focused quality time with the older kids while the toddler is with a babysitter. I spend much more time outlining the appropriate behavior before we go somewhere, and telling them what I will reward good behavior with and what consequences will result from bad behavior. I've given back most toys, as they are being much more aware of their behavior and its impact on others. The eight-year old especially is really stepping up. I know this will take continued effort, especially as husband is still gone, but I'm encouraged by the progress thus far. Thanks again for your support and understanding! |