Value of highly ranked undergrad if law school in your future

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

I never said it matters to law firms at all -- at law firms all that matters is the law school.

I also never said that Yale doesn't admit anyone who didn't attend a top college. I merely said it was "somewhat" of any exception. Yes, I'm aware of their published list for the last five years, but the list doesn't say how many students from each school was actually admitted and are attending. If you really have time, click on the Skadden website and read the bios of the Yale Law grads who work there. You'll see that the overwhelming majority went to elite colleges.

That list is about 180 schools. In five years, Yale had about 1000 students enroll. All this shows is that where you attend college is not a bar to entry, but without more data, it's impossible to say whether it is comparatively easier to get accepted at Yale if you're applying from certain schools rather than others. So you can't say that it doesn't matter.

Your last two sentences contradict each other, so I don't get your point. My point is that it DOES matter, at least "somewhat," at Yale. It's a small law school that is more selective than any in the country. The large majority of Yale Law students went to top colleges -- fact.

I think I probably would agree with you. You can get into Yale law from any undergraduate institution, but I think (not know) that it is easier to do some from a small group of colleges (certainly Yale undergrad). There is a difference between "can you do it" vs "how hard is it".

[Anonymous]

Why do these discussions always get focused on Yale, as if it's the only law school that matters? Any T14 will get a student into BigLaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

I never said it matters to law firms at all -- at law firms all that matters is the law school.

I also never said that Yale doesn't admit anyone who didn't attend a top college. I merely said it was "somewhat" of any exception. Yes, I'm aware of their published list for the last five years, but the list doesn't say how many students from each school was actually admitted and are attending. If you really have time, click on the Skadden website and read the bios of the Yale Law grads who work there. You'll see that the overwhelming majority went to elite colleges.

That list is about 180 schools. In five years, Yale had about 1000 students enroll. All this shows is that where you attend college is not a bar to entry, but without more data, it's impossible to say whether it is comparatively easier to get accepted at Yale if you're applying from certain schools rather than others. So you can't say that it doesn't matter.

Your last two sentences contradict each other, so I don't get your point. My point is that it DOES matter, at least "somewhat," at Yale. It's a small law school that is more selective than any in the country. The large majority of Yale Law students went to top colleges -- fact.

Correlation is not causation.

There are no law school feeders.

Cute aphorism, but you don't have enough information to discount some causation here.

[Anonymous]

But don't assume all undergrad programs provide the same preparation. Yes, most everyone at the top tier law schools killed it on the LSAT but that does not necessarily mean they can handle the work. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a higher ranked undergrad might prepare DC more thoroughly than a less challenging place. And if one is really looking down the road, some schools give a noticeable bump to their own undergrads for law.

[Anonymous]

Always heard undergrad prestige was a tie breaker at best but could easily be negated with by other tie breakers (work experience, major, etc). And it would have to be like Harvard vs Towson to move the needle.

[Anonymous]

Maybe y'all missed the thread on employment rankings https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1063792.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do these discussions always get focused on Yale, as if it's the only law school that matters? Any T14 will get a student into BigLaw.

Well, in this particular case the focus shifted to Yale only because someone decided to take issue with the clearly true statement that, at Yale, the prestige of the undergraduate school matters "somewhat."

And why do these discussions "always get focused" on Biglaw? OP never brought that up either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But don't assume all undergrad programs provide the same preparation. Yes, most everyone at the top tier law schools killed it on the LSAT but that does not necessarily mean they can handle the work. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a higher ranked undergrad might prepare DC more thoroughly than a less challenging place. And if one is really looking down the road, some schools give a noticeable bump to their own undergrads for law.

I'm not aware of any data anywhere suggesting that law school students from lesser ranked colleges with the same LSAT scores as those from higher ranked colleges don't perform as well in law school. Can you provide any, or are you just assuming that this is the case with nothing to back it up except your own personal bias?

[Anonymous]

OMG . . .this thread reminds me of what I hated about law school. I mean, let's all stare at the twig and forget the forest. Saving $220K on undergrad tuition over four years will pay for law school and thus make a big difference in a student's post-law school career options. Go to Wooster.

[Anonymous]

It's not important if you have to take on debt (or more debt) to do it. I went to a state university that people on here WOULD NEVER send their kids to, and then a top 4 law school. Honestly even though I had a great GPA and LSAT score, I'm pretty sure that "geographic diversity" helped my admission too.

Taking zero debt for undergrad made taking $$$$$ debt for law school bearable too. I remember a woman in my law school class had a husband in a nearby law school simultaneously (they prioritized her admission because it was the highest ranking) and between the two of their undergrad and law degrees they were on track to graduate as a couple with more than half a million in student loan debt. Talk about a weight on your back.

[Anonymous]

Not quite the same question you're asking, but another consideration is the undergrad education they will get as an end in itself, not just a means to law school. Because, realistically, the plans made by a 17-18 year old who has not yet been out in the world much yet are almost certainly going to change over four years of college. I am also for minimizing debt, since we know that could impact their adult life for decades in negative ways. But I wouldn't choose an undergrad with the expectation that law school is of course going to be the next step. choose the undergrad for the undergrad that will be the best fit for them to learn and grow.

[Anonymous]

Going to any decent undergrad school for free is always a better choice regardless of goals. Unless you can pay for them without any kind of sacrifice- but most can’t.

Maybe all those fancy law firm bios with elite undergrad degrees just tell us that they’re from wealthy families. Which would also have connections for hiring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not quite the same question you're asking, but another consideration is the undergrad education they will get as an end in itself, not just a means to law school. Because, realistically, the plans made by a 17-18 year old who has not yet been out in the world much yet are almost certainly going to change over four years of college. I am also for minimizing debt, since we know that could impact their adult life for decades in negative ways. But I wouldn't choose an undergrad with the expectation that law school is of course going to be the next step. choose the undergrad for the undergrad that will be the best fit for them to learn and grow.

One of the PPs. I agree with this. Law school should not be a factor in choosing a prestigious school. However, one might decide to choose a prestigious school for other reasons, weighing all factors including cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do these discussions always get focused on Yale, as if it's the only law school that matters? Any T14 will get a student into BigLaw.

That is not accurate. It depends on the economy, the gpa, and which T14.

[Anonymous]

(clarification)

Anonymous wrote:Not quite the same question you're asking, but another consideration is the undergrad education they will get as an end in itself, not just a means to law school. Because, realistically, the plans made by a 17-18 year old who has not yet been out in the world much yet are almost certainly going to change over four years of college. I am also for minimizing debt, since we know that could impact their adult life for decades in negative ways. But I wouldn't choose an undergrad with the expectation that law school is of course going to be the next step. choose the undergrad for the undergrad that will be the best fit for them to learn and grow.

One of the PPs. I agree with this. Law school should not be a factor in choosing a prestigious undergrad. However, one might decide to choose a prestigious undergrad for other reasons, weighing all factors including cost.