Value of highly ranked undergrad if law school in your future

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

I never said it matters to law firms at all -- at law firms all that matters is the law school.

I also never said that Yale doesn't admit anyone who didn't attend a top college. I merely said it was "somewhat" of any exception. Yes, I'm aware of their published list for the last five years, but the list doesn't say how many students from each school was actually admitted and are attending. If you really have time, click on the Skadden website and read the bios of the Yale Law grads who work there. You'll see that the overwhelming majority went to elite colleges.

That list is about 180 schools. In five years, Yale had about 1000 students enroll. All this shows is that where you attend college is not a bar to entry, but without more data, it's impossible to say whether it is comparatively easier to get accepted at Yale if you're applying from certain schools rather than others. So you can't say that it doesn't matter.

Your last two sentences contradict each other, so I don't get your point. My point is that it DOES matter, at least "somewhat," at Yale. It's a small law school that is more selective than any in the country. The large majority of Yale Law students went to top colleges -- fact.

I think I probably would agree with you. You can get into Yale law from any undergraduate institution, but I think (not know) that it is easier to do some from a small group of colleges (certainly Yale undergrad). There is a difference between "can you do it" vs "how hard is it".

It's easier to do from Yale because there are way more ridiculously smart, hard-working, ambitious overachievers there than at less selective schools, not because Yale has a golden ticket they hand out to each graduate. A superstar is a superstar, regardless of where they get their education.

so, it's easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Actually law school admissions offices do take into account the [prestige] level of the undergrad. But I wouldn’t think that Bates would get that much credibility over Wooster. It’s not Amherst.

I work in a top 35 law school, adjacent to the admissions office. They couldn't care less where you did undergrad. That doesn't factor into US News rankings. It's all about the numbers. Every year I learn of a new college where some 1L had a 4.0.

at a top '35' law school, they just care that you can pay the tuition . . .

[Anonymous]

These kind of question is silly. First very few has the chance to pick between a top school and an average school. It's very hard to get in a top school. So for the majority it's moot point. For the few who do have the choice to pick and there is a cost difference, it's up to each individual's case how they value $. There is no right answer. Someone likes to spend money on food while others like to spend it on first-class tickets. And there are people who like to spend it on elite education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

Don't see Wooster on those lists.

The top pre-law grad from Wooster in 2021 is going to BC Law School https://wooster.edu/2021/05/05/wooster-names-jacob-abramo-2021-carpenter-prize-winner/

The 2020 one is going to Ohio State Law School.

2019 - Univ of Minn Law School

To answer your question, it will be challenging to get into a top law school from Wooster.

[Anonymous]

This is OP. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.
I agree that law school may not be in his future despite his current inclination. But in that case, isnt it better to go to a place like Vassar or Haverford (at $80k) rather than Wooster or Gettysburg (at $30) or are SLACs really that fungible?
Also interested to hear that masters at SAIS or Georgetown not useful. I had thought that if you went to a “no-name” school, a masters from better rep school would be very beneficial?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my knowledge Law is the only profession where even 20 years out, one lawyer will ask another - where did you go to school? And they mean both undergrad and law. And I guess, hearing from legal friends, being able to say Cornell Yale is more prestigious than saying Wooster Yale.

Not true. Law school will always matter when you're applying for a new job (which is unlike some jobs where education kind of falls off the resume after a certain level of experience), but we don't go around asking each other where we went to undergrad, let alone judging on it.

+1. Law school yes, undergrad no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.
I agree that law school may not be in his future despite his current inclination. But in that case, isnt it better to go to a place like Vassar or Haverford (at $80k) rather than Wooster or Gettysburg (at $30) or are SLACs really that fungible?
Also interested to hear that masters at SAIS or Georgetown not useful. I had thought that if you went to a “no-name” school, a masters from better rep school would be very beneficial?

For the purpose of T14 law school admission, LACs are that fungible.
-one of the many former attorneys in this thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.
I agree that law school may not be in his future despite his current inclination. But in that case, isnt it better to go to a place like Vassar or Haverford (at $80k) rather than Wooster or Gettysburg (at $30) or are SLACs really that fungible?
Also interested to hear that masters at SAIS or Georgetown not useful. I had thought that if you went to a “no-name” school, a masters from better rep school would be very beneficial?

Also, masters isn't needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

+1. This is correct. I went to a blah SLAC but was valedictorian so got into all the top law schools because they are looking only for GPA and LSAT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

Don't see Wooster on those lists.

The top pre-law grad from Wooster in 2021 is going to BC Law School https://wooster.edu/2021/05/05/wooster-names-jacob-abramo-2021-carpenter-prize-winner/

The 2020 one is going to Ohio State Law School.

2019 - Univ of Minn Law School

To answer your question, it will be challenging to get into a top law school from Wooster.

Bates isn't on those lists either, but ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my knowledge Law is the only profession where even 20 years out, one lawyer will ask another - where did you go to school? And they mean both undergrad and law. And I guess, hearing from legal friends, being able to say Cornell Yale is more prestigious than saying Wooster Yale.

Not true. Law school will always matter when you're applying for a new job (which is unlike some jobs where education kind of falls off the resume after a certain level of experience), but we don't go around asking each other where we went to undergrad, let alone judging on it.

Totally agree. It is absolutely not true that lawyers we are fixated decades out on undergrad schools. Law school only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.
I agree that law school may not be in his future despite his current inclination. But in that case, isnt it better to go to a place like Vassar or Haverford (at $80k) rather than Wooster or Gettysburg (at $30) or are SLACs really that fungible?
Also interested to hear that masters at SAIS or Georgetown not useful. I had thought that if you went to a “no-name” school, a masters from better rep school would be very beneficial?

SLACs aren’t fungible as educational experiences, but none of the schools you’ve listed has so much (or so little) prestige for that to make a difference wrt law school admissions. If admissions is all that’s in the mix in the choice among these options, he should go where he can maximize grades and minimize costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

I never said it matters to law firms at all -- at law firms all that matters is the law school.

I also never said that Yale doesn't admit anyone who didn't attend a top college. I merely said it was "somewhat" of any exception. Yes, I'm aware of their published list for the last five years, but the list doesn't say how many students from each school was actually admitted and are attending. If you really have time, click on the Skadden website and read the bios of the Yale Law grads who work there. You'll see that the overwhelming majority went to elite colleges.

That list is about 180 schools. In five years, Yale had about 1000 students enroll. All this shows is that where you attend college is not a bar to entry, but without more data, it's impossible to say whether it is comparatively easier to get accepted at Yale if you're applying from certain schools rather than others. So you can't say that it doesn't matter.

Your last two sentences contradict each other, so I don't get your point. My point is that it DOES matter, at least "somewhat," at Yale. It's a small law school that is more selective than any in the country. The large majority of Yale Law students went to top colleges -- fact.

I think I probably would agree with you. You can get into Yale law from any undergraduate institution, but I think (not know) that it is easier to do some from a small group of colleges (certainly Yale undergrad). There is a difference between "can you do it" vs "how hard is it".

It's easier to do from Yale because there are way more ridiculously smart, hard-working, ambitious overachievers there than at less selective schools, not because Yale has a golden ticket they hand out to each graduate. A superstar is a superstar, regardless of where they get their education.

so, it's easier.

No, not for any one individual. My comment referred to it being natural that a place with more qualified applicants would yield more acceptances--I could have phrased that better. The same individual, though, would not have an easier time applying from Yale than from, say, Wesleyan or Connecticut College.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired (praise Jesus) Biglaw (ugh) lawyer here

There is no way in hell that I'd recommend a kid or family going into debt to attend Bates over Wooster to increase the chance of T14 admissions. In fact, I wouldn't recommend going into debt to attend any college with the goal of goal to law school. No way.

Law school admissions are based almost entirely on GPA and LSAT, even at the so-called T14 level. Yale might be somewhat of an exception, because it's so small and so selective, but I wouldn't select a college based on the probability of getting admitted to Yale Law.

Interesting that you mention Yale, because they actually share the undergraduate schools of their law students:

https://law.yale.edu/admissions-financial-aid/jd-admissions/profiles-statistics/undergraduate-institutions-represented-yls-2020-24

Apparently it doesn't matter much there, as well.

The site below also shows where recent hires at Skadden Arps went for undergrad:

https://lesshighschoolstress.com/law/

Doesn't appear to matter to top law firms, either.

Don't see Wooster on those lists.

The top pre-law grad from Wooster in 2021 is going to BC Law School https://wooster.edu/2021/05/05/wooster-names-jacob-abramo-2021-carpenter-prize-winner/

The 2020 one is going to Ohio State Law School.

2019 - Univ of Minn Law School

To answer your question, it will be challenging to get into a top law school from Wooster.

Allegheny College, the first one on Yale's list, is ranked lower than Wooster by USNWR. There are many other examples. If you're a superstar at a less selective college, Yale will want you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.
I agree that law school may not be in his future despite his current inclination. But in that case, isnt it better to go to a place like Vassar or Haverford (at $80k) rather than Wooster or Gettysburg (at $30) or are SLACs really that fungible?
Also interested to hear that masters at SAIS or Georgetown not useful. I had thought that if you went to a “no-name” school, a masters from better rep school would be very beneficial?

They should go to whichever is the best proverbial fit, and overall cost of education to be pursued is a legitimate part of that calculation.