Why does VSI have so many faster age group swimmers than PVS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When should 200s start? My 11 year old is swimming then and it seems like a lot and I wonder if it is too much too soon?

The 200 Free, 200 IM, 400/500 Free are official 10&U events. The 200 breast, back, fly and 400 IM start at 11-12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When should 200s start? My 11 year old is swimming then and it seems like a lot and I wonder if it is too much too soon?

This is my DDs first year in club swim and she’s with one of the big clubs. She just turned 10 and recently did her first 200 free and first 200 IM. Most of her teammates also started doing the 200 free and 200 IM when they were late 9/early 10. She’ll do the 500 free at some point in the fall when the new season starts. My understanding is the kids in the higher 9/10 training groups will do all the 50s, all the 100s, the 200 free, 200 IM, and the 500 free before they age up to the 11/12 group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Former swimmer and I agree. I didn’t necessarily do too much too soon and even I can’t really enjoy swimming as a lifelong sport because my shoulders cannot do it anymore. One of my college teammates has a son in a VSI club and he is one of those kids that was doing the 500 free at 8 years old. I think he is only 9 now and is really fast and went to that meet in Florida for fast swimmers as well as JOs or whatever it’s called in VSI. It is interesting to see him being pushed so young because his mother was a great age group swimmer but stopped growing early (shortest on our team) and did not improve her times at all in college. She hated swimming by the time it ended and I know that she has no interest in swimming as an adult. I’m not sure why she’s setting her kid up for the same fate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Former swimmer and I agree. I didn’t necessarily do too much too soon and even I can’t really enjoy swimming as a lifelong sport because my shoulders cannot do it anymore. One of my college teammates has a son in a VSI club and he is one of those kids that was doing the 500 free at 8 years old. I think he is only 9 now and is really fast and went to that meet in Florida for fast swimmers as well as JOs or whatever it’s called in VSI. It is interesting to see him being pushed so young because his mother was a great age group swimmer but stopped growing early (shortest on our team) and did not improve her times at all in college. She hated swimming by the time it ended and I know that she has no interest in swimming as an adult. I’m not sure why she’s setting her kid up for the same fate.

Does this person have multiple children who swim? Just wondering if we know the same person!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Former swimmer and I agree. I didn’t necessarily do too much too soon and even I can’t really enjoy swimming as a lifelong sport because my shoulders cannot do it anymore. One of my college teammates has a son in a VSI club and he is one of those kids that was doing the 500 free at 8 years old. I think he is only 9 now and is really fast and went to that meet in Florida for fast swimmers as well as JOs or whatever it’s called in VSI. It is interesting to see him being pushed so young because his mother was a great age group swimmer but stopped growing early (shortest on our team) and did not improve her times at all in college. She hated swimming by the time it ended and I know that she has no interest in swimming as an adult. I’m not sure why she’s setting her kid up for the same fate.

Does this person have multiple children who swim? Just wondering if we know the same person!

No I believe it’s an only child. I’m sure there is more than one parent like this.

[Anonymous]

Things change. PVS teams dominated during 2023 NCSA in Orlando. But the fact VA teams swam and had competitions during Covid probably made a difference in the year you looked at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Not sure I agree with that. My son in VSI (now 10) did the 200 free, 200 IM, 500 free at 8 years old and at that time he was only practicing twice a week and definitely no overuse concerns. In fact, his club is big on not doing too much too soon with training, because they are looking at the long game. For a kid with some talent and athleticism, a 200 is not too much at 8. For some kids it is too much, so they aren’t put in those events.

Please come back and update when your kid is 18.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When should 200s start? My 11 year old is swimming then and it seems like a lot and I wonder if it is too much too soon?

The 200 Free, 200 IM, 400/500 Free are official 10&U events. The 200 breast, back, fly and 400 IM start at 11-12.

Damn

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Not sure I agree with that. My son in VSI (now 10) did the 200 free, 200 IM, 500 free at 8 years old and at that time he was only practicing twice a week and definitely no overuse concerns. In fact, his club is big on not doing too much too soon with training, because they are looking at the long game. For a kid with some talent and athleticism, a 200 is not too much at 8. For some kids it is too much, so they aren’t put in those events.

Great for your kid but the idea that the average 8 year old who swims 2x a week can comfortably do a 200 IM or a 500 free is ridiculous.

+1 that is absurd

+another 1 - I think OPs DS was an outlier and she's assuming he was the norm for your run of the mill 8u. Sure, he's not alone and there are other 8u's that could do the same but it's far from typical for that age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.