Why does VSI have so many faster age group swimmers than PVS?

[Anonymous]

Am I looking at the wrong thing? One of my kids is a distance swimmer. I pulled age group champs cuts:

VSI: https://www.teamunify.com/va/UserFiles/Image/QuickUpload/2021-2024-agc-qts---final_046013.pdf

PVS: (first page) https://www.pvswim.org/2223meet/2023-LC-13&O-Champs-Qualifying-Times.pdf

13/14:

1650 mile scy- pvs: 18:48.99 vsi: 18:53.49 (pvs harder)

1000 scy, pvs: 11:08.99 vsi: 11:12.49, pvs harder

500 free, pvs harder

Am I looking at the wrong things?

[Anonymous]

^^ boys

[Anonymous]

VSI does the East German thing, which is why they are so fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:VSI does the East German thing, which is why they are so fast.

What does this mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

At a meet where a 9 year old can do say 7 events, your team has them do the 200 free, 500 free and 200 IM at every one of those meets each time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

At a meet where a 9 year old can do say 7 events, your team has them do the 200 free, 500 free and 200 IM at every one of those meets each time?

Learn to read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

At a meet where a 9 year old can do say 7 events, your team has them do the 200 free, 500 free and 200 IM at every one of those meets each time?

Learn to read.

To be fair your phrasing “once in a meet” was poor. You should have “in at least one meet during the season” if that’s what you meant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

You don’t seem to understand swimming too well. Doing a bunch of 25s and 50s with maybe some 75s or 100s sprinkled in once in a while (i.e, the appropriate type of training for 9-10) does not prepare kids to swim 200s and 500 well in meets. If kids are doing well in these they are probably doing age inappropriate distances at practices. Talent is different from endurance. Doing a 500 well requires endurance. Coaches may tell you they are doing the right training for their age, but some unfortunately prioritize short term success over long term development and retention in the sport. It’s better to purposely hold kids back from doing longer training distances early and focus on technique. Practices should be at least 60% technique focused at that age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When should 200s start? My 11 year old is swimming then and it seems like a lot and I wonder if it is too much too soon?

200M and 500M swims are where your child will be able to obtain "A" times (different than MCSL "A" meets). Everything below that tops out at "BB" times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When should 200s start? My 11 year old is swimming then and it seems like a lot and I wonder if it is too much too soon?

200M and 500M swims are where your child will be able to obtain "A" times (different than MCSL "A" meets). Everything below that tops out at "BB" times.

Ummm there is a lot wrong with this sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP we moved from PVS to VSI with age group swimmers and I think you are right. The championship qualifying times are faster for age group swimmers and I also think there is a different philosophy regarding meets. There are not as many “mini meets”, most meets are just 12&U. My oldest swimmers in PVS never saw a 200 length race until the age of 9, whereas my current 8&u in VSI has swum both a 200 free and 200 IM and regularly swims 100s and will do a 400 free this summer. We were at a meet last month where 10&u did the 400IM and 200s of all strokes. There are also many more prelims/finals meets for 10&u in VSI. I have no idea what the long term impact is, but in the short term it would seem to set a higher bar and provide a different competition experience.

Honestly 8 and unders should not be swimming 200s. The training needed to do those events and do them well is way too much for a kid that age and will lead to overuse injuries.

Completely agree. I am an orthopedic surgeon and this made me want to throw up that kid would swim those lengths that young. Short term they might be faster but swimming should be viewed as a long game with the intent to peak well after puberty (not before). Trying too much too young will not have a long term benefit but will have life long injury and pain. I see too many high school and college swimmers with bad shoulders and pain. Those same kids will have debilitating pain at 40 and chronic pain impacts social relationships, family and life in general.

Ask your kids how many yards they swim in practice. 8u kids are swimming at least 800-1000 yds in practice. 10u are swimming at least 800-1500 yds. Swimming a 200 yd race is not that much for a kid who swims 5x that amount in practice, even if it’s just twice a week. 200 yds might be their warmup BEFORE they start their sets.

That might be their total yardage for practice but they are swimming it in 25-50 yard increments during their sets. The 8Us are not swimming 200s as part of their practice sets. Other than maybe the 200 free, there aren’t 200s that kids that young should be racing. My DD is with one of the big clubs and only the top 10-11 year olds are regularly competing in the 200s of the specialty strokes.

It’s ludicrous to say that injuries, both short term and long term, occur primarily from racing 200 yd free twice a season and not from swimming 2k-3k yds a week. It’s the repetitive stress of incorrect arm motions that is the biggest contributor to injury. So a kid who swims 2k yds 4 times a week and never swims a meet is less likely to get injured, while a kid who swims 1k yds twice a week and swims 200 free a few times is more likely? Doubtful.

No one said injuries are occurring just by virtue of competing in distance events at the 10 and under level. But any kids at those ages that are having success in distance events, particularly the specialty strokes, are training at a level that is unhealthy for their age. It’s the unhealthy training that is enabling them to compete in those events when they are so young.

What are you blathering on about?

My 10U is only swimming 3 days a week. Had a lot of success (NCSA/Zones cuts) in the longer events - 500 free, 200 IM, etc. Some kids are just talented.

Don’t be surprised when other kids catch up to your talented kid. Things click at different ages for different kids and there will be plenty who figure out how to do the 200s and 500 well at a more age appropriate time. It’s like the scenario of a kid who can swim all four strokes legally at 6. They look like a star early on but then don’t stand out so much later when other kids figure things out at 8.

I really don't care if my kid doesn't stay fast. I was responding to the poster who was claiming that the only swimmers who have success at young ages in distance events are training at a level that is unhealthy for their ages. That stance is ridiculous.

Also, FWIW, our club team has all the 9/10s swim the 500 free, 200 free and 200 IM at least once in a meet. They swim much farther in practice, and it's really not a big deal.

You don’t seem to understand swimming too well. Doing a bunch of 25s and 50s with maybe some 75s or 100s sprinkled in once in a while (i.e, the appropriate type of training for 9-10) does not prepare kids to swim 200s and 500 well in meets. If kids are doing well in these they are probably doing age inappropriate distances at practices. Talent is different from endurance. Doing a 500 well requires endurance. Coaches may tell you they are doing the right training for their age, but some unfortunately prioritize short term success over long term development and retention in the sport. It’s better to purposely hold kids back from doing longer training distances early and focus on technique. Practices should be at least 60% technique focused at that age.

+1 This exactly.

If they are training them for distance swimming in practice at this age, that is bad. And if they aren’t training them for distance swimming in practice, what is the point of even racing it at all in a meet? No point.