Hitting crisis point as predicted

[Anonymous]

Whats the difference between selling the aunt's house and paying off their mortgage so they can age in place if its the same community? The money would still be used to care for them. Or you just don't want to give up something you consider an immediate asset of yours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you previously posted about the situation with your family? If so, no need for another thread.

No idea if OP has posted before, but there’s no rule that someone can post about something only once.

Yes, OP posted about this in December:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1021319.page

There was A LOT of good advice given in response to OP's multiple prior posts. It does not seem like that is what OP is looking for, as OP does not acknowledge nor appreciate it. One particular post that was very insightful was:

"Generally, there is no lawful obligation for one adult to provide, supply, manage or pay for care, goods and services for another adult.

With parents (depending on your beliefs) there may be a moral obligation to do these things, but that obligation must be weighed in context. A person is not obliged to ruin themselves, become a doormat, sign to voluntarily take on legal obligations they otherwise would not have. This is particularly true where the person who needs help has caused or substantially contributed to their condition, typically by rejecting timely suggestions and offers of more limited aid.

That being said, nobody has a right to an inheritance either, and if somebody wants to run their estate into the ground to maintain control over it they have the right to do that.

Waiting for the (typically inevitable) need for the person to be hospitalized and then need discharge planning, the PP’s suggestion to simply tell the discharge planner that you are not available personally or in terms of assets to contribute anything sounds cruel, and it can have a cruel impact. The question is whether that impact is the result of the non-helper’s decision or the cumulative decisions of the person in need. Typically, both are in play, but it is undeniably true that people frequently dig themselves into their own trouble. Dragging a second person down with them seems attractive, but in fact, a penurious person probably qualifies for government-funded health care and residential placement. It may not be all everybody would have wanted, but it will be something, and it leaves people who otherwise would be getting drowned in the tsunami free to try to help with extras where they can and to be a set of eyes on the caretakers.

This is dreadful stuff. Very often, the person one feels an obligation to is “no longer home.” Short term therapy and mutual support groups can help us see the reality of things and be more objective. There is no benefit in being angry at the needy person. You can’t be half in (for whatever your “share” of assets is) and half out (for caretaking). You can’t control other people. There is no benefit in destroying yourself trying to meet unreasonable demands or share responsibility with people who are not going to perform.

One of my parents was tired of the nursing home and hospitals. They wanted to come home and sit in their easy chair. It was this time of year. Their “plan” was completely unreasonable. They couldn’t walk, could barely stand up, we’re cycling between respiratory emergencies as their kidneys failed. There wasn’t time to get help on a moment’s notice, even if the money was there for anything but a brief respite, which it wasn’t. I promised I’d do what I could when I could. Instead, they rolled over and died that night with their best friend in the room with them. They probably wouldn’t have survived the trip home.

In situations like these, the goal is to be a lifeboat, not a rescue ship, hoping when the end comes to feel that we’ve done what we could, that what we didn’t do was not within our power, and that anybody (including the committee in our head) who says otherwise is ignorant at best and a malicious liar at worst.

Hope this helps. Good luck."

If OP just wants to vent, then vent away. That's fine. But OP just needs to be clear that they are not seeking input nor advice and just want to complain. It will prevent others from wasting their time providing thoughtful insight which is not what OP wants.

Advice only works when it works, otherwise its just words. But I DO understand how people think their ideas are so wonderful that the people it's being proposed to does not care to hear it. I DID take people's advice here and tried to apply it, but when you have three people saying no to everything, well, that advice can't work. So my response was to propose, get turned down, and back off. I spoke to a social worker that works with elderly and she said it's clear they will have to hit a crisis, crash, then take the best option to get them out of it. That's the only time any headway can be made. So yeah, I'm venting because I just came back from helping and I can already hear the next 'can you come out here' on the table and worse yet, can you move here. When my father or mother is faced with a nursing home or taking more practical advice, they will take more practical advice. So far, I've offered them the opportunity to move a mile away into my aunt's house and live there for free, to move here to the DC area and live in a lovely apartment in our home for free, to move to my beach place for free, or to buy their own condo in an great elderly facility in the beach town, where my sister could still live with them to help and get paid by the state to do so. Instead, they choose to stay put in a precarious situation which they can no longer afford. If they want to do that, we CAN LEND them the money after we sell my aunt's house, but we WILL put a lien on their house so we are paid back after they both pass. That will cut into my sister and brother's inheritance, which will piss them off, but tough crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you previously posted about the situation with your family? If so, no need for another thread.

No idea if OP has posted before, but there’s no rule that someone can post about something only once.

Yes, OP posted about this in December:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1021319.page

There was A LOT of good advice given in response to OP's multiple prior posts. It does not seem like that is what OP is looking for, as OP does not acknowledge nor appreciate it. One particular post that was very insightful was:

"Generally, there is no lawful obligation for one adult to provide, supply, manage or pay for care, goods and services for another adult.

With parents (depending on your beliefs) there may be a moral obligation to do these things, but that obligation must be weighed in context. A person is not obliged to ruin themselves, become a doormat, sign to voluntarily take on legal obligations they otherwise would not have. This is particularly true where the person who needs help has caused or substantially contributed to their condition, typically by rejecting timely suggestions and offers of more limited aid.

That being said, nobody has a right to an inheritance either, and if somebody wants to run their estate into the ground to maintain control over it they have the right to do that.

Waiting for the (typically inevitable) need for the person to be hospitalized and then need discharge planning, the PP’s suggestion to simply tell the discharge planner that you are not available personally or in terms of assets to contribute anything sounds cruel, and it can have a cruel impact. The question is whether that impact is the result of the non-helper’s decision or the cumulative decisions of the person in need. Typically, both are in play, but it is undeniably true that people frequently dig themselves into their own trouble. Dragging a second person down with them seems attractive, but in fact, a penurious person probably qualifies for government-funded health care and residential placement. It may not be all everybody would have wanted, but it will be something, and it leaves people who otherwise would be getting drowned in the tsunami free to try to help with extras where they can and to be a set of eyes on the caretakers.

This is dreadful stuff. Very often, the person one feels an obligation to is “no longer home.” Short term therapy and mutual support groups can help us see the reality of things and be more objective. There is no benefit in being angry at the needy person. You can’t be half in (for whatever your “share” of assets is) and half out (for caretaking). You can’t control other people. There is no benefit in destroying yourself trying to meet unreasonable demands or share responsibility with people who are not going to perform.

One of my parents was tired of the nursing home and hospitals. They wanted to come home and sit in their easy chair. It was this time of year. Their “plan” was completely unreasonable. They couldn’t walk, could barely stand up, we’re cycling between respiratory emergencies as their kidneys failed. There wasn’t time to get help on a moment’s notice, even if the money was there for anything but a brief respite, which it wasn’t. I promised I’d do what I could when I could. Instead, they rolled over and died that night with their best friend in the room with them. They probably wouldn’t have survived the trip home.

In situations like these, the goal is to be a lifeboat, not a rescue ship, hoping when the end comes to feel that we’ve done what we could, that what we didn’t do was not within our power, and that anybody (including the committee in our head) who says otherwise is ignorant at best and a malicious liar at worst.

Hope this helps. Good luck."

If OP just wants to vent, then vent away. That's fine. But OP just needs to be clear that they are not seeking input nor advice and just want to complain. It will prevent others from wasting their time providing thoughtful insight which is not what OP wants.

OP here. This was the last line of my original post:

Just had to get this out.

Did you miss it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whats the difference between selling the aunt's house and paying off their mortgage so they can age in place if its the same community? The money would still be used to care for them. Or you just don't want to give up something you consider an immediate asset of yours?

Their mortgage is paid off. They can't afford to upkeep, taxes, etc, on their house and worse yet, they are out of cash so can't crisis manage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whats the difference between selling the aunt's house and paying off their mortgage so they can age in place if its the same community? The money would still be used to care for them. Or you just don't want to give up something you consider an immediate asset of yours?

And....they are not entitled to someone else's cash because 'they don't wanna'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you previously posted about the situation with your family? If so, no need for another thread.

No idea if OP has posted before, but there’s no rule that someone can post about something only once.

Yes, OP posted about this in December:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1021319.page

There was A LOT of good advice given in response to OP's multiple prior posts. It does not seem like that is what OP is looking for, as OP does not acknowledge nor appreciate it. One particular post that was very insightful was:

"Generally, there is no lawful obligation for one adult to provide, supply, manage or pay for care, goods and services for another adult.

With parents (depending on your beliefs) there may be a moral obligation to do these things, but that obligation must be weighed in context. A person is not obliged to ruin themselves, become a doormat, sign to voluntarily take on legal obligations they otherwise would not have. This is particularly true where the person who needs help has caused or substantially contributed to their condition, typically by rejecting timely suggestions and offers of more limited aid.

That being said, nobody has a right to an inheritance either, and if somebody wants to run their estate into the ground to maintain control over it they have the right to do that.

Waiting for the (typically inevitable) need for the person to be hospitalized and then need discharge planning, the PP’s suggestion to simply tell the discharge planner that you are not available personally or in terms of assets to contribute anything sounds cruel, and it can have a cruel impact. The question is whether that impact is the result of the non-helper’s decision or the cumulative decisions of the person in need. Typically, both are in play, but it is undeniably true that people frequently dig themselves into their own trouble. Dragging a second person down with them seems attractive, but in fact, a penurious person probably qualifies for government-funded health care and residential placement. It may not be all everybody would have wanted, but it will be something, and it leaves people who otherwise would be getting drowned in the tsunami free to try to help with extras where they can and to be a set of eyes on the caretakers.

This is dreadful stuff. Very often, the person one feels an obligation to is “no longer home.” Short term therapy and mutual support groups can help us see the reality of things and be more objective. There is no benefit in being angry at the needy person. You can’t be half in (for whatever your “share” of assets is) and half out (for caretaking). You can’t control other people. There is no benefit in destroying yourself trying to meet unreasonable demands or share responsibility with people who are not going to perform.

One of my parents was tired of the nursing home and hospitals. They wanted to come home and sit in their easy chair. It was this time of year. Their “plan” was completely unreasonable. They couldn’t walk, could barely stand up, we’re cycling between respiratory emergencies as their kidneys failed. There wasn’t time to get help on a moment’s notice, even if the money was there for anything but a brief respite, which it wasn’t. I promised I’d do what I could when I could. Instead, they rolled over and died that night with their best friend in the room with them. They probably wouldn’t have survived the trip home.

In situations like these, the goal is to be a lifeboat, not a rescue ship, hoping when the end comes to feel that we’ve done what we could, that what we didn’t do was not within our power, and that anybody (including the committee in our head) who says otherwise is ignorant at best and a malicious liar at worst.

Hope this helps. Good luck."

If OP just wants to vent, then vent away. That's fine. But OP just needs to be clear that they are not seeking input nor advice and just want to complain. It will prevent others from wasting their time providing thoughtful insight which is not what OP wants.

OP here. This was the last line of my original post:

Just had to get this out.

Did you miss it?

Did you miss it in your previous posts where several people gave you advice to get therapy as you do not seem to be managing this situation well? That would be the best place to "get this out." Seriously, OP, you are dancing on a knife edge psychologically and I sincerely hope you get professional help. Your knee-jerk defensiveness and sarcasm are undoubtedly manifesting in other parts of your life both at work and at home. It cannot be pleasant way to live, for yourself and for those around you. Please ... go talk to someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you previously posted about the situation with your family? If so, no need for another thread.

No idea if OP has posted before, but there’s no rule that someone can post about something only once.

Yes, OP posted about this in December:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1021319.page

There was A LOT of good advice given in response to OP's multiple prior posts. It does not seem like that is what OP is looking for, as OP does not acknowledge nor appreciate it. One particular post that was very insightful was:

"Generally, there is no lawful obligation for one adult to provide, supply, manage or pay for care, goods and services for another adult.

With parents (depending on your beliefs) there may be a moral obligation to do these things, but that obligation must be weighed in context. A person is not obliged to ruin themselves, become a doormat, sign to voluntarily take on legal obligations they otherwise would not have. This is particularly true where the person who needs help has caused or substantially contributed to their condition, typically by rejecting timely suggestions and offers of more limited aid.

That being said, nobody has a right to an inheritance either, and if somebody wants to run their estate into the ground to maintain control over it they have the right to do that.

Waiting for the (typically inevitable) need for the person to be hospitalized and then need discharge planning, the PP’s suggestion to simply tell the discharge planner that you are not available personally or in terms of assets to contribute anything sounds cruel, and it can have a cruel impact. The question is whether that impact is the result of the non-helper’s decision or the cumulative decisions of the person in need. Typically, both are in play, but it is undeniably true that people frequently dig themselves into their own trouble. Dragging a second person down with them seems attractive, but in fact, a penurious person probably qualifies for government-funded health care and residential placement. It may not be all everybody would have wanted, but it will be something, and it leaves people who otherwise would be getting drowned in the tsunami free to try to help with extras where they can and to be a set of eyes on the caretakers.

This is dreadful stuff. Very often, the person one feels an obligation to is “no longer home.” Short term therapy and mutual support groups can help us see the reality of things and be more objective. There is no benefit in being angry at the needy person. You can’t be half in (for whatever your “share” of assets is) and half out (for caretaking). You can’t control other people. There is no benefit in destroying yourself trying to meet unreasonable demands or share responsibility with people who are not going to perform.

One of my parents was tired of the nursing home and hospitals. They wanted to come home and sit in their easy chair. It was this time of year. Their “plan” was completely unreasonable. They couldn’t walk, could barely stand up, we’re cycling between respiratory emergencies as their kidneys failed. There wasn’t time to get help on a moment’s notice, even if the money was there for anything but a brief respite, which it wasn’t. I promised I’d do what I could when I could. Instead, they rolled over and died that night with their best friend in the room with them. They probably wouldn’t have survived the trip home.

In situations like these, the goal is to be a lifeboat, not a rescue ship, hoping when the end comes to feel that we’ve done what we could, that what we didn’t do was not within our power, and that anybody (including the committee in our head) who says otherwise is ignorant at best and a malicious liar at worst.

Hope this helps. Good luck."

If OP just wants to vent, then vent away. That's fine. But OP just needs to be clear that they are not seeking input nor advice and just want to complain. It will prevent others from wasting their time providing thoughtful insight which is not what OP wants.

OP here. This was the last line of my original post:

Just had to get this out.

Did you miss it?

Did you miss it in your previous posts where several people gave you advice to get therapy as you do not seem to be managing this situation well? That would be the best place to "get this out." Seriously, OP, you are dancing on a knife edge psychologically and I sincerely hope you get professional help. Your knee-jerk defensiveness and sarcasm are undoubtedly manifesting in other parts of your life both at work and at home. It cannot be pleasant way to live, for yourself and for those around you. Please ... go talk to someone.

Doing that as well. Therapist agrees with me -offer but don’t expect takers. Also said being pissed is normal. I’m being asked to ruin my own future to provide for their whims

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you previously posted about the situation with your family? If so, no need for another thread.

No idea if OP has posted before, but there’s no rule that someone can post about something only once.

Yes, OP posted about this in December:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1021319.page

There was A LOT of good advice given in response to OP's multiple prior posts. It does not seem like that is what OP is looking for, as OP does not acknowledge nor appreciate it. One particular post that was very insightful was:

"Generally, there is no lawful obligation for one adult to provide, supply, manage or pay for care, goods and services for another adult.

With parents (depending on your beliefs) there may be a moral obligation to do these things, but that obligation must be weighed in context. A person is not obliged to ruin themselves, become a doormat, sign to voluntarily take on legal obligations they otherwise would not have. This is particularly true where the person who needs help has caused or substantially contributed to their condition, typically by rejecting timely suggestions and offers of more limited aid.

That being said, nobody has a right to an inheritance either, and if somebody wants to run their estate into the ground to maintain control over it they have the right to do that.

Waiting for the (typically inevitable) need for the person to be hospitalized and then need discharge planning, the PP’s suggestion to simply tell the discharge planner that you are not available personally or in terms of assets to contribute anything sounds cruel, and it can have a cruel impact. The question is whether that impact is the result of the non-helper’s decision or the cumulative decisions of the person in need. Typically, both are in play, but it is undeniably true that people frequently dig themselves into their own trouble. Dragging a second person down with them seems attractive, but in fact, a penurious person probably qualifies for government-funded health care and residential placement. It may not be all everybody would have wanted, but it will be something, and it leaves people who otherwise would be getting drowned in the tsunami free to try to help with extras where they can and to be a set of eyes on the caretakers.

This is dreadful stuff. Very often, the person one feels an obligation to is “no longer home.” Short term therapy and mutual support groups can help us see the reality of things and be more objective. There is no benefit in being angry at the needy person. You can’t be half in (for whatever your “share” of assets is) and half out (for caretaking). You can’t control other people. There is no benefit in destroying yourself trying to meet unreasonable demands or share responsibility with people who are not going to perform.

One of my parents was tired of the nursing home and hospitals. They wanted to come home and sit in their easy chair. It was this time of year. Their “plan” was completely unreasonable. They couldn’t walk, could barely stand up, we’re cycling between respiratory emergencies as their kidneys failed. There wasn’t time to get help on a moment’s notice, even if the money was there for anything but a brief respite, which it wasn’t. I promised I’d do what I could when I could. Instead, they rolled over and died that night with their best friend in the room with them. They probably wouldn’t have survived the trip home.

In situations like these, the goal is to be a lifeboat, not a rescue ship, hoping when the end comes to feel that we’ve done what we could, that what we didn’t do was not within our power, and that anybody (including the committee in our head) who says otherwise is ignorant at best and a malicious liar at worst.

Hope this helps. Good luck."

If OP just wants to vent, then vent away. That's fine. But OP just needs to be clear that they are not seeking input nor advice and just want to complain. It will prevent others from wasting their time providing thoughtful insight which is not what OP wants.

OP here. This was the last line of my original post:

Just had to get this out.

Did you miss it?

Did you miss it in your previous posts where several people gave you advice to get therapy as you do not seem to be managing this situation well? That would be the best place to "get this out." Seriously, OP, you are dancing on a knife edge psychologically and I sincerely hope you get professional help. Your knee-jerk defensiveness and sarcasm are undoubtedly manifesting in other parts of your life both at work and at home. It cannot be pleasant way to live, for yourself and for those around you. Please ... go talk to someone.

Doing that as well. Therapist agrees with me -offer but don’t expect takers. Also said being pissed is normal. I’m being asked to ruin my own future to provide for their whims

So don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I won't contribute anything unless we are getting paid back out of the house sale when they pass. That's my only offer on the table financially.

OP, my advice to you is to take that offer off the table. You say you are not dealing with rational parents. If your parents were capable of being rational, that would be a fine offer.

But what they are hearing in your offer is this: "Daughter is financially able to take care of us the way we want right now." And they just aren't moving away from this. They aren't thinking about your financial needs down the road, just their own.

You need to refuse to pay ANYTHING. Don't tell them they have to sell the house. Just tell them that you cannot fund them. Eventually SOMEONE will tell them they should sell the house to pay for their care. but you don't have to be the bad guy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Instead, they choose to stay put in a precarious situation which they can no longer afford. If they want to do that, we CAN LEND them the money after we sell my aunt's house, but we WILL put a lien on their house so we are paid back after they both pass. That will cut into my sister and brother's inheritance, which will piss them off, but tough crap.

Nope, then definitely do not offer to do that. (See post above). Stop telling anyone (parents, sister, brother) that you have the ability to pay for your parents' care. Sell the aunt's house. Save the profits, they are your inheritance from your aunt, correct?

You do not have any money to help your parents. The offers you make that are contingent upon this or that are not hitting rational ears, including the ears of your sister and brother. If they are counting on an inheritance from your parents home, they are also not rational. Who do they think is going to pay for their parents' care, if not from the sale of their house?

[Anonymous]

The suggestion that your sister should quit her job to provide 24-hour care for your parents while living under your financial thumb is absurd, and calls into question how reasonable or rational any of your other “helpful” suggestions are.

[Anonymous]

You need an elder attorney in their state. Your financial planning isn’t going to work out. When he is no longer able to cate for himself your dad can go into a nursing home and get Medicare to pay for it if he only has social security and then they put a lien on the house so your mother doesn’t end up homeless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Instead, they choose to stay put in a precarious situation which they can no longer afford. If they want to do that, we CAN LEND them the money after we sell my aunt's house, but we WILL put a lien on their house so we are paid back after they both pass. That will cut into my sister and brother's inheritance, which will piss them off, but tough crap.

Nope, then definitely do not offer to do that. (See post above). Stop telling anyone (parents, sister, brother) that you have the ability to pay for your parents' care. Sell the aunt's house. Save the profits, they are your inheritance from your aunt, correct?

You do not have any money to help your parents. The offers you make that are contingent upon this or that are not hitting rational ears, including the ears of your sister and brother. If they are counting on an inheritance from your parents home, they are also not rational. Who do they think is going to pay for their parents' care, if not from the sale of their house?

Sell your aunt’s house, invest the cash. Stop offering to pay for everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The suggestion that your sister should quit her job to provide 24-hour care for your parents while living under your financial thumb is absurd, and calls into question how reasonable or rational any of your other “helpful” suggestions are.

From OP's earlier thread, the sister lives with the parents, and it seems to me that she may be one reason that parents don't want to sell the house and move elsewhere -- where would their daughter go?

Or maybe sister doesn't want them to sell the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The suggestion that your sister should quit her job to provide 24-hour care for your parents while living under your financial thumb is absurd, and calls into question how reasonable or rational any of your other “helpful” suggestions are.

From OP's earlier thread, the sister lives with the parents, and it seems to me that she may be one reason that parents don't want to sell the house and move elsewhere -- where would their daughter go?

Or maybe sister doesn't want them to sell the house.

My sister can move into the condo in the beach town with them, taking the second bedroom and bath, and thinks this is a great solution. When they pass, she can remain there as she's over 60 herself. The complex is very excited at that prospect as she is certified in fitness for the elderly and want her to work for them, as well as to work independently as a contractor with whomever would want to hire her. The key was to find an elderly community that is not invested in providing assisted living. They tend to provide very little assisted living and have strict rules and high costs regarding live in help.

The "I won't leave" alternates between father and mother. That's not my sister's fault as she has just as much 'control' as I do. She *could* abandon them and force the issue, but I'm not going to tell her what to do. It's not my place to do so.