Covert narcissism

[Anonymous]

OP I think this thread caused a lot of narcissistic injury to those who must convince us you are wrong. It's kind of funny. The lashing out and the telling you that you are mentally ill for even using the term is classic.

[Anonymous]

I read up on covert narcissism because I think my husband is a narcissist, but he just doesn't quite fit the traits. The part about it often being an introvert resonated with me, though.

Still don't know if it fits my husband. Something is off about him, though.

For example, any time he goes to see a new doctor or some other type of service individual, he always comes home bragging how much they liked him. I have never once thought or cared if my doctor LIKES me. I care if the doctor is good. That type of thing.

The other bad behavior might or might not be narcissism. But that trait of his has always struck me as very weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I think this thread caused a lot of narcissistic injury to those who must convince us you are wrong. It's kind of funny. The lashing out and the telling you that you are mentally ill for even using the term is classic.

Oh FFS. People are telling you it's a made up term because it is. If you can't take someone telling you the truth...maybe you're the narcissist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covert narcissism is not a real psychological term. It is like a psychological internet conspiracy for people who can’t make sense of their relationships. The only people who go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally I’ll themselves. Labeling your spouse a covert narcissist doesn’t serve you. You need to do what everyone else does - get a real therapist to work in your relationship with you and decide next steps. And please please please don’t spend the rest of your life complaining to your children about how their dad is a “covert narcissist.” In case you can’t tell, my mother was just like you!!!!!

You sound very angry. Very, very angry.. has someone called you a covert narcissist? Because it seems like a real nerve was hit. Labeling people “mentally ill” based off your own personal judgments isn’t really something that’s helpful or ethical. Also, terms like “covert narcissist” have helped many women leave incredibly abusive relationships because they were able to identify what was happening to them. If women leaving abusers makes you angry, then i don’t really know what to tell you.

Yes, I am very angry, because my mom was sucked into all this internet narcissism nonsense. First, she decided my dad was a narcissist. Then she decided his parents were narcissists. Then she decided my sister and I were narcissists. Then she decided her two brothers were narcissists. None of us are actually narcissists and do not match the criteria for NPD, so how convenient that the internet provided her with a menu of different kinds of narcissists. Who is the common denominator in all these failed relationships? My mom! She can’t accept that she has actual issues to work through and problems relating to others, so it became paramount for her to label and dismiss everyone in her life, and the thriving internet community of narcissism-obsessive helped her do it. It’s not unlike watching someone descend into internet conspiracy theories. It’s really upsetting and has affected me intensely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Covert narcissism is not a technical term (it's not in the DSM-IV, for instance) but it does describe some real behaviors that are useful to identify whether you are doing them or being impacted by them. While a true narcissist is relatively rare, all people display narcissistic tendencies at times. And if you are in a relationship with someone who is stuck in patterns of narcissistic behavior, this can be extremely difficult even if they don't meet the definition of a narcissist.

One reason I find covert narcissism a useful term is that it can force people to reckon with the impact of their behavior instead of fixating on intentions. The problem with focusing ONLY on intentions is that people tend to be very generous with themselves about their own intentions. Also people tend to act instinctually in their own self interest, which means they can do harmful things without ever thinking "And now I will screw over my partner by ignoring all their needs in favor of my own."

My DH is not a covert narcissist but he used to have a specific behavior that could be categorized this way. Whenever I'd criticize him in any way, he'd immediately make the conversation about how hurtful it was for me to criticize him. No matter what. Even if it was my first criticism in 6 months, even if the thing I was criticizing was a really hurtful behavior on his part. These conversations ALWAYS became about how unkind I was to say something "mean" about him. It became such a permanent feature of our arguments that I started to document it and very carefully laid it out for him during a time when we weren't in an argument. Once I had said it, my DH started to recognize he was doing it, and things started to get better. But if I tried to point it out in the moment ("Why are we once again talking about how it's mean of me to raise any issues with you and never actually talking about any of those issues?") he'd just get mad and defensive. It was incredibly frustrating and made it impossible for me to get emotional needs met for a chunk of our relationship.

It was useful for me to read about covert narcissism online when I was untangling all this for myself. It helped me recognize that this pattern is not uncommon, and also to pinpoint exactly how it was affecting me. And that made it much easier for me to explain to my DH.

I do think people get too hung up on labeling someone a narcissist when we should focus on describing behaviors. But to say that covert narcissism is not real is false. It's an apt way to describe people who use a specific set of techniques and manipulations to accomplish narcissistic goals. Even if they say that's not what the intended.

Sorry, but you kind of proved my point. First of all, your husband is clearly not a narcissist because once you were able to articulate your issue to him, he agreed to work on it and resolve it. A narcissist would never do that. Though it sounds like your husband is overly defensive, a big part of the issue here seems to be that you were unable to understand or articulate what your husband’s behavior was and why it bothered you - aka, you have problems relating to people. Your husband is not a narcissist - you were just having trouble communicating.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

A couple points of clarification- 1) I am going to therapy myself. I have asked multiple times to go together because I know I don't have all the parenting answers and because we have such different approaches (mine is nurturing, positive affirmation and the other person's is authoritarian and strict adherence to rules), I think an expert, unbiased third party would be so beneficial and help alleviate the confusion we're sowing on our young children. The response is "I have all the answers. I am the expert." So no place for compromise or concern about my feelings. 2) Children are young and I would never project my feelings of my spouse onto them. 100%. That is a terrible, awful idea and even if this goes south I will never speak poorly of that person in front of the kids. 3) NBP is diagnosable, but it's rare to actually get diagnosed with it. I get that. The term covert narcissism is a convenient term for someone who knows what I'm dealing with. For someone in therapy, I know it won't ever get diagnosed and I know there are issues around a label. But I drop it for sake of discussion. People fluctuate on a narcissistic spectrum- and arguably everyone is narcissistic to a degree for self preservation- but there is a spectrum. I know you can critique me here for armchair psychology but I'm trying to understand my situation. 4) This individual cannot take any level of criticism and will have fits frequently that are unprovoked. It's detrimental to have my children witness it. I agree there are likely anger issues, but when I say no empathy, for example, my child might fall and hurt his knee and the response will be "told ya you'd fall."

My gut feeling is that nothing will change and that even if I can get therapy for both of us, it'll be a long and tough process. I wanted to reach out to see if there is anyone who has gone through this or could share their experience. This has been a relatively new 'aha' moment and I'm trying to just hear more experiences if they exist or people feel comfortable sharing.

[Anonymous]

“Covert narcissism is a convenient term so people so what I’m dealing with” - no, it’s just a way for you to get sympathy and signal that you are the “wronged” one in the relationship without actually telling people what your husband is doing.

The single example you’ve given of his “lack of empathy” is not even bad! Your child falls and he said I told ya so? Well yea, if someone warns you not to do something, you do it, and you fall, I think the child should learn that lesson. That is very much open to debate, not a clear “lack of empathy.”

What does it mean he “throws fits”? What does it mean he “can’t be criticized”? Are you really saying you undermine him in front of his kids and he doesn’t like it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

A couple points of clarification- 1) I am going to therapy myself. I have asked multiple times to go together because I know I don't have all the parenting answers and because we have such different approaches (mine is nurturing, positive affirmation and the other person's is authoritarian and strict adherence to rules), I think an expert, unbiased third party would be so beneficial and help alleviate the confusion we're sowing on our young children. The response is "I have all the answers. I am the expert." So no place for compromise or concern about my feelings. 2) Children are young and I would never project my feelings of my spouse onto them. 100%. That is a terrible, awful idea and even if this goes south I will never speak poorly of that person in front of the kids. 3) NBP is diagnosable, but it's rare to actually get diagnosed with it. I get that. The term covert narcissism is a convenient term for someone who knows what I'm dealing with. For someone in therapy, I know it won't ever get diagnosed and I know there are issues around a label. But I drop it for sake of discussion. People fluctuate on a narcissistic spectrum- and arguably everyone is narcissistic to a degree for self preservation- but there is a spectrum. I know you can critique me here for armchair psychology but I'm trying to understand my situation. 4) This individual cannot take any level of criticism and will have fits frequently that are unprovoked. It's detrimental to have my children witness it. I agree there are likely anger issues, but when I say no empathy, for example, my child might fall and hurt his knee and the response will be "told ya you'd fall."

My gut feeling is that nothing will change and that even if I can get therapy for both of us, it'll be a long and tough process. I wanted to reach out to see if there is anyone who has gone through this or could share their experience. This has been a relatively new 'aha' moment and I'm trying to just hear more experiences if they exist or people feel comfortable sharing.

I’m sorry that you are going through this, but some people are just jerks. Personality disorders are real but need to be diagnosed by a doctor not the internet. It sounds like your husband is a jerk who is also insecure, defensive, and has anger issues. Being an @ssh0le is not always due to a personality disorder. Why are people so quick to absolve others of the jerk behavior by blaming it on a “personality disorder”? You husband’s actions are 100% within his control and he treats you and your child this way because he gets away with it and it helps him to feel better about himself. Are you going to continue to raise your child with him?

[Anonymous]

OP, it sounds like you’re the one who won’t compromise, and your husband knows that the only reason you want to drag him to therapy is so the therapist will tell him he’s wrong and he needs to do things your way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covert narcissism is not a technical term (it's not in the DSM-IV, for instance) but it does describe some real behaviors that are useful to identify whether you are doing them or being impacted by them. While a true narcissist is relatively rare, all people display narcissistic tendencies at times. And if you are in a relationship with someone who is stuck in patterns of narcissistic behavior, this can be extremely difficult even if they don't meet the definition of a narcissist.

One reason I find covert narcissism a useful term is that it can force people to reckon with the impact of their behavior instead of fixating on intentions. The problem with focusing ONLY on intentions is that people tend to be very generous with themselves about their own intentions. Also people tend to act instinctually in their own self interest, which means they can do harmful things without ever thinking "And now I will screw over my partner by ignoring all their needs in favor of my own."

My DH is not a covert narcissist but he used to have a specific behavior that could be categorized this way. Whenever I'd criticize him in any way, he'd immediately make the conversation about how hurtful it was for me to criticize him. No matter what. Even if it was my first criticism in 6 months, even if the thing I was criticizing was a really hurtful behavior on his part. These conversations ALWAYS became about how unkind I was to say something "mean" about him. It became such a permanent feature of our arguments that I started to document it and very carefully laid it out for him during a time when we weren't in an argument. Once I had said it, my DH started to recognize he was doing it, and things started to get better. But if I tried to point it out in the moment ("Why are we once again talking about how it's mean of me to raise any issues with you and never actually talking about any of those issues?") he'd just get mad and defensive. It was incredibly frustrating and made it impossible for me to get emotional needs met for a chunk of our relationship.

It was useful for me to read about covert narcissism online when I was untangling all this for myself. It helped me recognize that this pattern is not uncommon, and also to pinpoint exactly how it was affecting me. And that made it much easier for me to explain to my DH.

I do think people get too hung up on labeling someone a narcissist when we should focus on describing behaviors. But to say that covert narcissism is not real is false. It's an apt way to describe people who use a specific set of techniques and manipulations to accomplish narcissistic goals. Even if they say that's not what the intended.

Sorry, but you kind of proved my point. First of all, your husband is clearly not a narcissist because once you were able to articulate your issue to him, he agreed to work on it and resolve it. A narcissist would never do that. Though it sounds like your husband is overly defensive, a big part of the issue here seems to be that you were unable to understand or articulate what your husband’s behavior was and why it bothered you - aka, you have problems relating to people. Your husband is not a narcissist - you were just having trouble communicating.

Oh wow. First, I never said my husband was a narcissist. I was very careful to explain that everyone has narcissistic tendencies and that this thing my DH did was an example of a narcissistic behavior, but not that he was a narcissist.

I am not the OP and was making a slightly different argument than other PPs, about the usefulness of these terms. But I disagree with OPs and PPs choice to label people “covert narcissists” because, as I explained, a true narcissist with NPD is rare. And also because I’ve found labeling people, and not behavior, is usually unproductive.

But your choice to misread my post, twist it to fit the argument YOU wanted to make, and cap it off by telling me that my example with my husband was about me having problems relating to other people… just wow.

I’m guessing you’ve been called a narcissist by people before?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone share experiences coparenting with wha they believe to be a covert narcissistic? I'm worried about my children and whether or not this is a" stay and work on the relationship" or "go" moment. Blows up in front of children, no empathy, angry, and the list goes on. Has anyone figured out how to get them into therapy?

You only met him after having children or knew him before? Is this an arranged or shotgun marriage? Anyhow, you made a bad decision worse by having mot one but more children with a person you cant co-parent with.

There are few options, none is great or guaranteed.

1. You ask children's pediatrician or psychologist to recommend therapy to the father.

2. You ask for separation until he is willing to change or see a therapist for his lack of behavioral controls.

3. You divorce and ask for custody if he is unwilling to resolve it.

4. You yourself learn ways to manage his behavior.

I'm sorry for you and the kids. Its mental abuse. You and the kids deserve better not worse side of him. You are an adult who didn't take enough time to see the signs or just ignored the signs before getting married and bringing children to a bad environment but children are absolutely innocent with no control over anything.

Is he a case of overnight covert narcissism or did you date, go exclusive, marry, got pregnant again and again knowing he is one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

A couple points of clarification- 1) I am going to therapy myself. I have asked multiple times to go together because I know I don't have all the parenting answers and because we have such different approaches (mine is nurturing, positive affirmation and the other person's is authoritarian and strict adherence to rules), I think an expert, unbiased third party would be so beneficial and help alleviate the confusion we're sowing on our young children. The response is "I have all the answers. I am the expert." So no place for compromise or concern about my feelings. 2) Children are young and I would never project my feelings of my spouse onto them. 100%. That is a terrible, awful idea and even if this goes south I will never speak poorly of that person in front of the kids. 3) NBP is diagnosable, but it's rare to actually get diagnosed with it. I get that. The term covert narcissism is a convenient term for someone who knows what I'm dealing with. For someone in therapy, I know it won't ever get diagnosed and I know there are issues around a label. But I drop it for sake of discussion. People fluctuate on a narcissistic spectrum- and arguably everyone is narcissistic to a degree for self preservation- but there is a spectrum. I know you can critique me here for armchair psychology but I'm trying to understand my situation. 4) This individual cannot take any level of criticism and will have fits frequently that are unprovoked. It's detrimental to have my children witness it. I agree there are likely anger issues, but when I say no empathy, for example, my child might fall and hurt his knee and the response will be "told ya you'd fall."

My gut feeling is that nothing will change and that even if I can get therapy for both of us, it'll be a long and tough process. I wanted to reach out to see if there is anyone who has gone through this or could share their experience. This has been a relatively new 'aha' moment and I'm trying to just hear more experiences if they exist or people feel comfortable sharing.

How is he as a person and as a husband? Is this only an issue of parenting or is he same about other things?

[Anonymous]

He sounds like he lacks empathy and has anger issues. I don't see him changing without effective therapy. If he cant be a kind and supportive partner then parenting conflicts are secondary problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone share experiences coparenting with wha they believe to be a covert narcissistic? I'm worried about my children and whether or not this is a" stay and work on the relationship" or "go" moment. Blows up in front of children, no empathy, angry, and the list goes on. Has anyone figured out how to get them into therapy?

You only met him after having children or knew him before? Is this an arranged or shotgun marriage? Anyhow, you made a bad decision worse by having mot one but more children with a person you cant co-parent with.

There are few options, none is great or guaranteed.

1. You ask children's pediatrician or psychologist to recommend therapy to the father.

2. You ask for separation until he is willing to change or see a therapist for his lack of behavioral controls.

3. You divorce and ask for custody if he is unwilling to resolve it.

4. You yourself learn ways to manage his behavior.

I'm sorry for you and the kids. Its mental abuse. You and the kids deserve better not worse side of him. You are an adult who didn't take enough time to see the signs or just ignored the signs before getting married and bringing children to a bad environment but children are absolutely innocent with no control over anything.

Is he a case of overnight covert narcissism or did you date, go exclusive, marry, got pregnant again and again knowing he is one?

What difference does it make? Its water under the bridge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think this thread caused a lot of narcissistic injury to those who must convince us you are wrong. It's kind of funny. The lashing out and the telling you that you are mentally ill for even using the term is classic.

Oh FFS. People are telling you it's a made up term because it is. If you can't take someone telling you the truth...maybe you're the narcissist?

The anger. So triggered. Are you OK? Can you calmly express you side or must you jump up and down cuss and demand that you are right?