People who are really good at deflecting responsibility

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s nothing to understand here. There is something wrong with them. What’s more interesting in a way is why you are so fascinated with this. Could be you want to ditch some of your internal guilt and be freer to make mistakes or consider yourself first. That’s also ok.

This. mental disorders, personality disorders, spectrum disorders, seriously negative coping mechanisms—- all to prop up ego and image, hide mistakes, and never take responsibility for things (or things not done that we’re supposed to be) . Sad thing is they are also lying to themselves, every day.

Try to distance yourself from them. The ones you’ve listed are also immortal and unethical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How to people get like this? I was raised Catholic (guilt-ridden) by parents who were huge on personal responsibility and who also blamed my siblings and I fit everything all the time. For a long time I was too good at accepting responsibility for stuff and had to learn that not everything is my fault. I feel I do okay now, and have hit a happy medium.

But I encounter a lot of people who are amazing at just avoiding any kind of responsibility for things they definitely did, and it amazes me. It’s so foreign. Some examples:

1) Colleague who cheated on his longtime girlfriend with another person in their social circle, later married other woman. Treated ex truly terribly— lying, gaslighting, etc., and she had serious mental health issues. Everyone knows about this. But he appears to have no real guilt, even talks about it like “Yeah, it’s unfortunate how that worked out” like it just happened, instead of being something he did.

2) Friend who has multiple times really harmed people with gossip. She just compulsively looks for and spreads gossip about people we know, never even caring whether it’s true, and there has been some awful fallout, and has contributed to a number of big falling outs (fallings out?) in our group. She’ll kind of laugh like “I know, I’m so bad!” But never changes or feels bad. It’s amazing to me.

I’m really trying to understand. It actually seems blissful and I almost wish I was like that. Is it just a front? Do they actually have guilt they don’t show? Or are they just really good at not even thinking about it? I’m curious.

Two words: personality disorders. Nothing to admire.

Ignorance is bliss, steamroll everyone with your psychotic rewriting of events?! No thanks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

[Anonymous]

OP, like you I was raised Catholic and have an overactive conscience. I wish I felt freer to make mistakes and just be human.

With people like this, I’ve come to the conclusion that they just have a much weaker moral compass. Likely the result of poor role models and denial as a coping mechanism. I just put a box around them and recognize them for who they are.

I don’t jump to mental health diagnoses tho I appreciate that that can be a big factor.

[Anonymous]

Some people are basically sociopaths who just don't care. But it's also possible that, if you're seeing this a lot, in a lot of different people, who otherwise seem like kind, decent people, that some of them just aren't performing the regret or contrition FOR YOU. They may be feeling sorry that they hurt someone, but they may handle that privately, with the person directly. They may feel like it's too personal to share, or may have a hard time admitting fault out loud, or are downplaying their culpability in front of others to avoid further shame or scolding. It's hard to really know what's going on inside other people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

Most people have blind spots about their own faults, unless they make the effort to be reflective and honest with themselves. And they may well be aware that their actions were hurtful, but have a hard time acknowledging that, either to themselves or to others. Or maybe they really don't suffer any consequences, because no one ever holds them to account. But are these people really good friends? Because if not, you don't really know how they feel, or what consequences they have suffered. The front that people put on in public isn't the same as what they are thinking or feeling or dealing with in private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

Everyone makes mistakes. No one needs to feel guilty every day forever. Normal people accept responsibility, even if you are not privy to it, and make an effort to do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

Everyone makes mistakes. No one needs to feel guilty every day forever. Normal people accept responsibility, even if you are not privy to it, and make an effort to do better.

This just isn't true. My observation is that it is much more "normal" for most people to avoid accountability, rarely if ever apologize, and make excuses for their hurtful or irresponsible behavior. Like that's just kind of the standard behavior I encounter in my day to day life, and when someone actually makes the effort to accept responsibility for something, it takes me by surprise and really impresses me because it's pretty rare.

Also, if people only "take responsibility" in private ways for more public harms (like being a nasty gossip), they aren't really taking responsibility. Not saying people have to shout their mea culpas from the rafters, but if you hurt someone in a public way, you should apologize at the same level of public-ness. It's really the only way to undo the harm you caused. I've also encountered people who want to apologize for bad behavior, but only to the people they know will forgive them, which may or may not even include the person they hurt. I had a boss who did something really harmful to a colleague of mine, who left the company. The boss ultimately apologized to the management staff at the company for the behavior, and was instantly forgiven and complimented for being such a big person. The colleague who was hurt never heard another word. That's not accountability! It's actually the opposite.

People are mostly assholes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s nothing to understand here. There is something wrong with them. What’s more interesting in a way is why you are so fascinated with this. Could be you want to ditch some of your internal guilt and be freer to make mistakes or consider yourself first. That’s also ok.

OP here and this is 100% why I'm fascinated by it. The idea of feeling free from guilt and an intense sense of responsibility towards other sounds extremely liberating to me. Like I said, I used to be much more burdened by guilt than I am now, and I do think I've found a reasonably equilibrium. But I am still conscientious to an above-average degree, so I am pretty interested in people who are not really conscientious at all. I don't think everyone should be like that (or maybe even anyone -- they are freeloading on those of us who try harder), but I would love to be able to forgive myself for things more easily and definitely to feel more free to make mistakes or put my own needs before others. Those things are hard for me and I'd like to see if I can learn something from people who do this easily, even if I don't really want to become like them. I want to be accountable, I just wish the feeling wasn't so burdensome.

I wouldn't look to them as "role models." Instead, try CBT. There are lots of books out there or go to someone who specializes in it. Guilt is not productive. You absolutely should feel free to make mistakes and put your own needs first. You can act in a way that is true to yourself, but that doesn't *intentionally* hurts people, like the examples you gave. I'm thinking of the thread I just read on here about that OP lying about making gravy to please her in laws. CBT would say that's manipulative because you are trying to please people to make yourself feel better. Instead, you should be able to say, "I bought the gravy because I'm not interested in making it from scratch" without a trace of guilt. What your in laws think about that makes no difference to you because you are taking care of your emotional needs in that scenario. Not trying to manipulate a situation. See the difference?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s nothing to understand here. There is something wrong with them. What’s more interesting in a way is why you are so fascinated with this. Could be you want to ditch some of your internal guilt and be freer to make mistakes or consider yourself first. That’s also ok.

OP here and this is 100% why I'm fascinated by it. The idea of feeling free from guilt and an intense sense of responsibility towards other sounds extremely liberating to me. Like I said, I used to be much more burdened by guilt than I am now, and I do think I've found a reasonably equilibrium. But I am still conscientious to an above-average degree, so I am pretty interested in people who are not really conscientious at all. I don't think everyone should be like that (or maybe even anyone -- they are freeloading on those of us who try harder), but I would love to be able to forgive myself for things more easily and definitely to feel more free to make mistakes or put my own needs before others. Those things are hard for me and I'd like to see if I can learn something from people who do this easily, even if I don't really want to become like them. I want to be accountable, I just wish the feeling wasn't so burdensome.

Hi OP. There is nothing you can learn from the people you describe. They are either narcissists/sociopathic tendencies or have compartmentalized and buried very deeply their shame but it manifests in other ways in their life.

The only way to move past guilt is to fully accept that life is very complicated and ambiguous and we are constantly learning thus making mistakes. Do your best, give what you can, acknowledge a mistake and try to do better in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

Everyone makes mistakes. No one needs to feel guilty every day forever. Normal people accept responsibility, even if you are not privy to it, and make an effort to do better.

This just isn't true. My observation is that it is much more "normal" for most people to avoid accountability, rarely if ever apologize, and make excuses for their hurtful or irresponsible behavior. Like that's just kind of the standard behavior I encounter in my day to day life, and when someone actually makes the effort to accept responsibility for something, it takes me by surprise and really impresses me because it's pretty rare.

Also, if people only "take responsibility" in private ways for more public harms (like being a nasty gossip), they aren't really taking responsibility. Not saying people have to shout their mea culpas from the rafters, but if you hurt someone in a public way, you should apologize at the same level of public-ness. It's really the only way to undo the harm you caused. I've also encountered people who want to apologize for bad behavior, but only to the people they know will forgive them, which may or may not even include the person they hurt. I had a boss who did something really harmful to a colleague of mine, who left the company. The boss ultimately apologized to the management staff at the company for the behavior, and was instantly forgiven and complimented for being such a big person. The colleague who was hurt never heard another word. That's not accountability! It's actually the opposite.

People are mostly assholes.

Many/most people feel too ashamed to apologize, but i also find that most people do correct their behavior in the future, so for all intents and purposes they have acknowledged a mistake or their part in a conflict and have learned something from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you could read The Sociopath Next Door if you are curious about people who lack a conscience. I think there also is a book literally entitled Without a Conscience. There is NOTHING to admire about such people. They lie and scheme because they have a massive void that they need to fill with stimulation, which they do by pulling one over on unsuspecting “normal” people. They are envious of people who have the full panoply of human emotions, which they lack. That “lack” causes tremendous boredom. They love causing chaos, being the center of attention (or conversely, creating chaos then acting innocent of their role in it), all for the purpose of creating drama aka some meaning and excitement in their life. Since they can’t bond with you, and since they are jealous that you can bond (but they can’t), they’ll use what they can get out of you then enjoy spitting you out in the end as a final hurrah.

OP here. I will check out those books, but I feel like describing these people as sociopaths might be going too far? I wouldn't say these are people who don't have the "full panoply of emotions". More like they just have enormous blind spots about their own behavior and somehow manage to explain away how hurtful/damaging their choices are because it's easier than changing or taking responsibility. Even the examples I gave (which were the worst ones I could think of in the moment) are people who I have seen demonstrate kindness, warmth, grief, empathy (limited, but many people are limited in this area), etc. But they also have these behaviors that are clearly incredibly selfish and obviously hurt others and just don't appear to feel bad about it.

But in addition to these two, I can think of dozens of examples in my life that are less severe. It seems like people do selfish and hurtful things all the time and are able to pretend there are no consequences. And I always think "How????" Again, I was raised to feel guilty all the time, so my perspective is skewed. But it's particularly surprising to me when people are able to escape any culpability for things that they so obviously did. It makes me feel slightly crazy. Are they really ALL sociopaths? That seems unlikely. Is it just a cultural thing that I didn't get indoctrinated into because of my hyper-moralistic parents?

NP. Emotions lie on a spectrum, it's not an on off switch. People with psycho/sociopathic tendencies do have emotions. They feel happiness, joy, surprise, disgust like the average person. They just feel much much less fear, anxiety and sadness.