How to de-escalate an argument with someone who refuses to and doesn't care about the consequences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking away is thrown back as "refusing to engage" - even if the walking away is after a several minute diatribe against me.

Suggesting spouse go take a walk until they are less angry escalates confrontation - "Don't you EVER tell me to get out of my house, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" at the top of voice.

The kids are traumatized and have been for years. He doesn't care at all and my attempts to say I won't have screaming matches in front of them is futile. I should have left YEARS ago and I know it. If I attempt it now it will be a scorched earth battle for sure.

He travels a lot for work and doesn't really give a crap about actually interacting with the kids so in general, avoidance has been the key.

Any tips other than preparing for divorce?

Court ordered psych exam or neuropsych— dollars to donuts he’s in the spectrum. And thus will never change or get better or normal.

Not OP, but even if he is on the spectrum... can you really get a diagnosis if he's totally not cooperative and denies it? I mean, you can diagnose oppositional behavior in a kid or even teen via surveys from their teachers, but an adult? How do you survey behavior from objective sources? How would this even work for someone who is high functioning, intelligent, manipulative, etc?

This is half of all high conflict divorces of the 15-20% that actually cannot settle and have to go to court. The other half is chronic mental disorders. Lots of overlap between the two as well.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like not fun, but necessary Op. you have to get out and your have to get your kids out of they abuse cycle too.

Can’t go over it, can’t go around it, must go through it. You’re going on a bear hunt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking away is thrown back as "refusing to engage" - even if the walking away is after a several minute diatribe against me.

Suggesting spouse go take a walk until they are less angry escalates confrontation - "Don't you EVER tell me to get out of my house, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" at the top of voice.

The kids are traumatized and have been for years. He doesn't care at all and my attempts to say I won't have screaming matches in front of them is futile. I should have left YEARS ago and I know it. If I attempt it now it will be a scorched earth battle for sure.

He travels a lot for work and doesn't really give a crap about actually interacting with the kids so in general, avoidance has been the key.

Any tips other than preparing for divorce?

Court ordered psych exam or neuropsych— dollars to donuts he’s in the spectrum. And thus will never change or get better or normal.

Not OP, but even if he is on the spectrum... can you really get a diagnosis if he's totally not cooperative and denies it? I mean, you can diagnose oppositional behavior in a kid or even teen via surveys from their teachers, but an adult? How do you survey behavior from objective sources? How would this even work for someone who is high functioning, intelligent, manipulative, etc?

Court orders psych exam, anger mgmt class, mandates therapy for all, parenting class, AA class, etc. Might be needed if he wants custody and there are kids suffering from ongoing trauma syndrome from their verbally and emotionally abusive father.

You guys are delusional.

I agree that this marriage sounds toxic and I would get divorced, but no judge is going to order psych tests for yelling. He’s going to get 50/50 just like everyone else.

[Anonymous]

I divorced. It all came to a head when he wanted to have an argument at 3 am in winter while I was bedrest for preterm contractions. I literally could not escape the house with my older child. He wouldn’t let me have my glasses or cell phone. My older child was crying. It was so traumatic. The next day, I called a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking away is thrown back as "refusing to engage" - even if the walking away is after a several minute diatribe against me.

Suggesting spouse go take a walk until they are less angry escalates confrontation - "Don't you EVER tell me to get out of my house, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" at the top of voice.

The kids are traumatized and have been for years. He doesn't care at all and my attempts to say I won't have screaming matches in front of them is futile. I should have left YEARS ago and I know it. If I attempt it now it will be a scorched earth battle for sure.

He travels a lot for work and doesn't really give a crap about actually interacting with the kids so in general, avoidance has been the key.

Any tips other than preparing for divorce?

Court ordered psych exam or neuropsych— dollars to donuts he’s in the spectrum. And thus will never change or get better or normal.

Not OP, but even if he is on the spectrum... can you really get a diagnosis if he's totally not cooperative and denies it? I mean, you can diagnose oppositional behavior in a kid or even teen via surveys from their teachers, but an adult? How do you survey behavior from objective sources? How would this even work for someone who is high functioning, intelligent, manipulative, etc?

Court orders psych exam, anger mgmt class, mandates therapy for all, parenting class, AA class, etc. Might be needed if he wants custody and there are kids suffering from ongoing trauma syndrome from their verbally and emotionally abusive father.

You guys are delusional.

I agree that this marriage sounds toxic and I would get divorced, but no judge is going to order psych tests for yelling. He’s going to get 50/50 just like everyone else.

Wrong.

Op, don’t get a lawyer who talks like this or pushes this view. Abuse is abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking away is thrown back as "refusing to engage" - even if the walking away is after a several minute diatribe against me.

Suggesting spouse go take a walk until they are less angry escalates confrontation - "Don't you EVER tell me to get out of my house, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" at the top of voice.

The kids are traumatized and have been for years. He doesn't care at all and my attempts to say I won't have screaming matches in front of them is futile. I should have left YEARS ago and I know it. If I attempt it now it will be a scorched earth battle for sure.

He travels a lot for work and doesn't really give a crap about actually interacting with the kids so in general, avoidance has been the key.

Any tips other than preparing for divorce?

Court ordered psych exam or neuropsych— dollars to donuts he’s in the spectrum. And thus will never change or get better or normal.

Not OP, but even if he is on the spectrum... can you really get a diagnosis if he's totally not cooperative and denies it? I mean, you can diagnose oppositional behavior in a kid or even teen via surveys from their teachers, but an adult? How do you survey behavior from objective sources? How would this even work for someone who is high functioning, intelligent, manipulative, etc?

Court orders psych exam, anger mgmt class, mandates therapy for all, parenting class, AA class, etc. Might be needed if he wants custody and there are kids suffering from ongoing trauma syndrome from their verbally and emotionally abusive father.

You guys are delusional.

I agree that this marriage sounds toxic and I would get divorced, but no judge is going to order psych tests for yelling. He’s going to get 50/50 just like everyone else.

Wrong.

Op, don’t get a lawyer who talks like this or pushes this view. Abuse is abuse.

OP here. I actually agree with PP - no judge is going to order a psych exam. My husband presents as an accomplished professional who is totally even-keeled outwardly. He's never even been to a therapist.

But as I put things in order/motion I will take the advice to prepare and launch with my lawyer understanding what the truth is.

[Anonymous]

You and your lawyer order the psych exams. The judge will agree to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As he's screaming at you, apologize for being thoughtless and agree with everything he says. Praise him for bringing all of these issues to your attention. Praise him for anything you can think of. Tell him you'll do better in the future, and you're so lucky to have him for guiding you to see the light. With any luck, after a while, he'll have no more ammunition and not be getting any new fuel from you, so this will diffuse the situation and bring his anger level a notch or two down.

Don't even remotely suggest that anything he says is wrong, including that he's angry and needs to calm down (by taking a walk, for example). He'll take that as a full blown threat. You stating that you're walking away is implicitly implying he's done something wrong, which he'll also take as a threat. And in the rage state, any threat is a 10 alarm fire. You cannot have a back and forth conversation, he can't process it in his state. Anything you say he'll interpret it as a threat, then attack you with it. If you can and feel like it would help, bring the issues up at some point when he's not angry and can talk about the calmly. However, it sounds like he's not someone who can ever really be reasonable, so this might not even really be possible.

Try to stay away from him as much as possible and live your life. Your choice whether to stay or divorce, not judging either decision. If you stay, try to learn the triggers (however illogical they may be) and either avoid them or just stay away entirely when you can tell he's agitated/tired/hungry whatever it is.

How do you know all this? Thanks
Not op but curious

[Anonymous]

Since you say he presents as an accomplished, even-keeled professional, I'd get out the phone and start recording when he starts screaming (and continue to stay calm).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since you say he presents as an accomplished, even-keeled professional, I'd get out the phone and start recording when he starts screaming (and continue to stay calm).

+1

op has a lot of excuses and seems to think abusers aren’t abusers because they do it behind closed doors/ only at home. Like they do it out in the open. They might make fun of you for “not having a sense of humor” for their out down joke at the BBQ pool party. But they aren’t flying off the handle like at home. In fact, if someone rang the doorbell during a rage, he’d bottle it up and answer the door with a quiet voice and smile!

Get some nanny cams up stat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As he's screaming at you, apologize for being thoughtless and agree with everything he says. Praise him for bringing all of these issues to your attention. Praise him for anything you can think of. Tell him you'll do better in the future, and you're so lucky to have him for guiding you to see the light. With any luck, after a while, he'll have no more ammunition and not be getting any new fuel from you, so this will diffuse the situation and bring his anger level a notch or two down.

Don't even remotely suggest that anything he says is wrong, including that he's angry and needs to calm down (by taking a walk, for example). He'll take that as a full blown threat. You stating that you're walking away is implicitly implying he's done something wrong, which he'll also take as a threat. And in the rage state, any threat is a 10 alarm fire. You cannot have a back and forth conversation, he can't process it in his state. Anything you say he'll interpret it as a threat, then attack you with it. If you can and feel like it would help, bring the issues up at some point when he's not angry and can talk about the calmly. However, it sounds like he's not someone who can ever really be reasonable, so this might not even really be possible.

Try to stay away from him as much as possible and live your life. Your choice whether to stay or divorce, not judging either decision. If you stay, try to learn the triggers (however illogical they may be) and either avoid them or just stay away entirely when you can tell he's agitated/tired/hungry whatever it is.

How do you know all this? Thanks
Not op but curious

Is just yellow rock instead of agree with a psycho and stroke their ego during their meltdown.

The PpP must have lived with a bipolar or schitzo or narcissist or HFA parent or sig other. I’d agree you can’t reason with them once they shutdown and yell. The can even same some delusional stuff; it’s scary! But I wouldn’t agree with anything they say or do.
Maybe a “it’s clear you’re not really present or available to speak on this matter so I’ll be elsewhere while you cool down.” And go to another room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I divorced. It all came to a head when he wanted to have an argument at 3 am in winter while I was bedrest for preterm contractions. I literally could not escape the house with my older child. He wouldn’t let me have my glasses or cell phone. My older child was crying. It was so traumatic. The next day, I called a lawyer.

Oh my god. I am so so glad you called a lawyer. He sounds horrible. Was he always like this?

[Anonymous]

OP, the answer to your question is grey rock. If that does not work you need to physically remove yourself from his presence. This led to my divorce FYI, and he still does it but now only by phone and grey rock is much easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, the answer to your question is grey rock. If that does not work you need to physically remove yourself from his presence. This led to my divorce FYI, and he still does it but now only by phone and grey rock is much easier.

+1

Grey rock (if not married) and yellow rock (if still living together or going through court).

This protects your sanity and cuts off his narcissist fuel.

[Anonymous]

What's yellow rock?