College Football--Big Ten Expansion

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:(OP again)

I am responding to the discussion regarding states sovereign immunity because it isan issue that may be raised if FSU decides to leave the ACC and cannot work out a satisfactory settlement with the ACC and ESPN and other relevant parties who have an interest in the matter.

Again, please read:

https://naag.org/attorney-general-journal/state-sovereign-immunity/

As I have written above, the state may waive its sovereign immunity in various ways such as failure to raise this affirmative defense, by legislation, by agreement stipulated in a contract, etc.


Read Pan-Am Tobacco Corp. v. Department of Corrections, 471 So. 2d 4 (Fla. 1984). There, the Supreme Court unequivocally held that state sovereign immunity does not apply in breach of contract actions, stating, “where the legislature has, by general law, authorized entities of the state to enter into contract or to undertake those activities which, as a matter of practicality, require entering into contract, the legislature has clearly intended that such contracts be valid and binding on both parties.” The court reasoned that to hold otherwise would render legislative authorization for such contracting void and meaningless. The Pan-Am Tobacco rule has been reaffirmed and applied dozens of times since 1984, most recently by the Florida Supreme Court in American Home Assurance Co. v. National Railroad Passenger Corp., 908 So. 2d 459, 462 (Fla. 2005).


Or the case here from this year from Florida dealing with a Floridt State University:

https://public.fastcase.com/ZZhmr5v9wN%2FXOe5IsQ%2FqDzRezr6rFFTdx7DtuuWe%2BmOYNwrmLM1%2FHrVMvxnaUdB%2Fdep3ur3VchJf6IKl7zFHmg%3D%3D



What is your understanding of the outcome of this case ?

To my understanding after a very quick read, it seems to support Florida International University (FIU, not FSU) regarding sovereign immunity and that sovereign immunity must be waives.


The holding of this case is that the waiver does not apply to an implied contract as opposed to a written contract. In reaching this result they reaffirm the rule from Pan Am set out above ---- waived for a written contract.


Do you understand the difference between a "holding" and "dicta" ?


I do. I am a lawyer. And if a lawyer would tell you that the State can enter a contract and not have to honor it because of Soveriegn Immunity they don't have a clue. Our entire commercial system would fall apart if that were the case.


You are correct, and that is not the same as denying sovereign immunity exists. It’s not very common, because it’s fairly rare that a governmental entity flat out breaches a written contract, but, when it happens, Courts invariably find that sovereign immunity doesn’t relieve the government of damages for breach, even when there is not an explicit waiver. When I first looked at this a couple of decades ago, most of the case law was from the 19th century, but there have been more cases since then.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:(OP again)

I am responding to the discussion regarding states sovereign immunity because it isan issue that may be raised if FSU decides to leave the ACC and cannot work out a satisfactory settlement with the ACC and ESPN and other relevant parties who have an interest in the matter.

Again, please read:

https://naag.org/attorney-general-journal/state-sovereign-immunity/

As I have written above, the state may waive its sovereign immunity in various ways such as failure to raise this affirmative defense, by legislation, by agreement stipulated in a contract, etc.


Read Pan-Am Tobacco Corp. v. Department of Corrections, 471 So. 2d 4 (Fla. 1984). There, the Supreme Court unequivocally held that state sovereign immunity does not apply in breach of contract actions, stating, “where the legislature has, by general law, authorized entities of the state to enter into contract or to undertake those activities which, as a matter of practicality, require entering into contract, the legislature has clearly intended that such contracts be valid and binding on both parties.” The court reasoned that to hold otherwise would render legislative authorization for such contracting void and meaningless. The Pan-Am Tobacco rule has been reaffirmed and applied dozens of times since 1984, most recently by the Florida Supreme Court in American Home Assurance Co. v. National Railroad Passenger Corp., 908 So. 2d 459, 462 (Fla. 2005).


Or the case here from this year from Florida dealing with a Floridt State University:

https://public.fastcase.com/ZZhmr5v9wN%2FXOe5IsQ%2FqDzRezr6rFFTdx7DtuuWe%2BmOYNwrmLM1%2FHrVMvxnaUdB%2Fdep3ur3VchJf6IKl7zFHmg%3D%3D



What is your understanding of the outcome of this case ?

To my understanding after a very quick read, it seems to support Florida International University (FIU, not FSU) regarding sovereign immunity and that sovereign immunity must be waives.


The holding of this case is that the waiver does not apply to an implied contract as opposed to a written contract. In reaching this result they reaffirm the rule from Pan Am set out above ---- waived for a written contract.


Do you understand the difference between a "holding" and "dicta" ?


I do. I am a lawyer. And if a lawyer would tell you that the State can enter a contract and not have to honor it because of Soveriegn Immunity they don't have a clue. Our entire commercial system would fall apart if that were the case.


You are correct, and that is not the same as denying sovereign immunity exists. It’s not very common, because it’s fairly rare that a governmental entity flat out breaches a written contract, but, when it happens, Courts invariably find that sovereign immunity doesn’t relieve the government of damages for breach, even when there is not an explicit waiver. When I first looked at this a couple of decades ago, most of the case law was from the 19th century, but there have been more cases since then.


Having a little trouble with the bolded portions.
Anonymous
There is a lot of non-edited discussion going on that misses critical language so there is no use debating this further as we, or at least I, do not have a copy of the agreement(s) between FSU & the ACC as well as the ACC and ESPN.

Maybe & hopefully we will learn more by the end of business on Tuesday.

We are not going to resolve anything among ourselves.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of non-edited discussion going on that misses critical language so there is no use debating this further as we, or at least I, do not have a copy of the agreement(s) between FSU & the ACC as well as the ACC and ESPN.

Maybe & hopefully we will learn more by the end of business on Tuesday.

We are not going to resolve anything among ourselves.


What is missing?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is August 15 the big ACC deadline? I know it is coming up quickly. Will FSU do anything this week?


Great question because even doing nothing by the Tuesday, August 15, 2023 deadline is "doing something". It may be taken as a sign of weakness or it may be that FSU needs more time. Personally, I will be surprised if FSU does not submit notification of intent to leave the ACC by Tuesday, August 15, 2023.


In an odd way the expansion has boxed FSU in. I think they may have wanted to give notice. Not to leave for certain but to give them leverage in discussions to stay. Now if they give notice, expansion will come back and someone will flip.

I think no notice.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of non-edited discussion going on that misses critical language so there is no use debating this further as we, or at least I, do not have a copy of the agreement(s) between FSU & the ACC as well as the ACC and ESPN.

Maybe & hopefully we will learn more by the end of business on Tuesday.

We are not going to resolve anything among ourselves.


What is missing?


Specific facts. Without the specific facts from the documents involved, many potential issues are not addressed or are not addressed in a proper manner. In fact, without the documents under discussion, we really do not know all of the issues. Facts matter; specifics matter.

For example: Issues not specifically addressed in any contractual provision.

Are the agreements between FSU & the ACC public documents ?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of non-edited discussion going on that misses critical language so there is no use debating this further as we, or at least I, do not have a copy of the agreement(s) between FSU & the ACC as well as the ACC and ESPN.

Maybe & hopefully we will learn more by the end of business on Tuesday.

We are not going to resolve anything among ourselves.


What are you talking about, the GoR has always been public https://wwwcache.wralsportsfan.com/asset/colleges/ncsu/2022/07/05/20361238/ACC-Grant-of-Rights-1-DMID1-5vgd1w2if.pdf
Anonymous
Thanks. Forgot that these documents were linked earlier in this thread.

Do we have access to the Notre Dame agreement with the ACC ?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of non-edited discussion going on that misses critical language so there is no use debating this further as we, or at least I, do not have a copy of the agreement(s) between FSU & the ACC as well as the ACC and ESPN.

Maybe & hopefully we will learn more by the end of business on Tuesday.

We are not going to resolve anything among ourselves.


What are you talking about, the GoR has always been public https://wwwcache.wralsportsfan.com/asset/colleges/ncsu/2022/07/05/20361238/ACC-Grant-of-Rights-1-DMID1-5vgd1w2if.pdf


Yes, now recall that the GOR document was linked earlier in the thread.

During the recent discussion in this thread no specific reference was included to any part of the agreement. Not sure what FSU attorneys will argue, but any argument will refer to specific provisions of the agreement.
Anonymous
Great article published today.

FSU Board Chairman says the GOR document is the least of his worries and that "that will not be the document that keeps us from leaving" the ACC.

https://theathletic.com/4774447/2023/08/14/florida-state-acc-revenue-realignment/
Anonymous
Reports coming out that FSU may want to take a year to strategize how best to exit the ACC.

Deadline for FSU to notify the ACC is tomorrow, Tuesday, August 15, 2023.
Anonymous
And another year where FSU is all talk and no action. The GoR is iron clad, they are just angling for more money.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:And another year where FSU is all talk and no action. The GoR is iron clad, they are just angling for more money.


Yep another head fake from a toothless Seminole with no landing spot.
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