Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I could not stop laughing about the widows and the mistresses all hanging out. Amazing, 10/10, no notes.

Also I called Roman's breakdown at the beginning of the episode. When he was rehearsing this eulogy in his apartment I told my DH that no way we'd see it at the real deal (you don't see speeches twice on TV) and also he was wound up so tight that his head was going to have to pop off at some point anyway. So that felt predictable to me.

[b]But Marcia comforting Kerry? Nope, not predictable, and I loved it. At least we don't have to listen to him grind his teeth tonight, eh ladies?! I died.[b]

So unexpected and surprisingly touching. Loved it

The Marcia/Kerry scene was the one scene where I cried. OK and maybe with Roman a little....poor kid. Great acting all around last night.

+1
I really dislike Kerry, but she acted that scene so well, where she couldn't even talk because she was about to sob. The funeral made me cry - both that scene and Kendall and Shiv's speeches.

Forgot to mention, also Roman's breakdown. OMG. Sobbing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

PP here. Well, maybe it was clear to me/is my impression but I chalk it up to three things:

1) Caroline remarking at least once, maybe more, that Logan took the kids off to America - not that they split time - the HE took them. And I feel like there was a comment about their accents;

2) When Logan sent the kids there to broach opening the divorce agreement and Caroline's requests weren't money, but a property that Logan loves because he loves it, and Christmas in England with the kids (this is the one that stood out to me - I found this really sad);

3) That he clearly controlled her with money - he bribed her to get her shares. He uses opening the divorce agreement to get something out of her.

Anyway, that's my impression of what happened. Which is why I also think Caroline pulled away emotionally from her children. She might have never been warm and hugely maternal, but she also wasn't allowed to the space to be either.

I was the poster who asked the question. Appreciate your response. I totally forgot about the Christmas part.

But, it feels like the kids despise Caroline. They make comments about her lack of mothering so that led me to believe she was cold and uninvolved by choice. Maybe Logan poisoned them against her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

NP here. Because he always wants "to win". Like Logan. He had his 1st wife put in the mental institution to get rid of her so he could marry Caroline and then he paid off Caroline when he divorced her just so he could keep the kids.

Yeah but I don't think he'd have had to pay much to get custody, Caroline didn't really like any of her children.

+1
The scenes with Caroline and the three siblings are painful to watch. She is such a horrible mother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

They were in England where the accident occurred.

"It's common knowledge that you must stop at the scene of any accident that you were involved in" in the UK: https://www.passmefast.co.uk/witness-accident

+1
The posters insisting Kendall didn't do anything wrong are bizarre. Of course you call police, immediately! You certainly don't slink away and act like you weren't even there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

PP here. Well, maybe it was clear to me/is my impression but I chalk it up to three things:

1) Caroline remarking at least once, maybe more, that Logan took the kids off to America - not that they split time - the HE took them. And I feel like there was a comment about their accents;

2) When Logan sent the kids there to broach opening the divorce agreement and Caroline's requests weren't money, but a property that Logan loves because he loves it, and Christmas in England with the kids (this is the one that stood out to me - I found this really sad);

3) That he clearly controlled her with money - he bribed her to get her shares. He uses opening the divorce agreement to get something out of her.

Anyway, that's my impression of what happened. Which is why I also think Caroline pulled away emotionally from her children. She might have never been warm and hugely maternal, but she also wasn't allowed to the space to be either.

I was the poster who asked the question. Appreciate your response. I totally forgot about the Christmas part.

But, it feels like the kids despise Caroline. They make comments about her lack of mothering so that led me to believe she was cold and uninvolved by choice. Maybe Logan poisoned them against her.

Their father was controlling and narcissistic. It's probably a lot easier to believe your mom just wasn't a good mom instead of processing that you believe that in order to stay in the good graces of your controlling narcissistic dad and not that he deprived you of her presence and potential as a parent. Which doesn't mean Caroline is blameless. It seems complicated, but not entirely her fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

They were in England where the accident occurred.

"It's common knowledge that you must stop at the scene of any accident that you were involved in" in the UK: https://www.passmefast.co.uk/witness-accident

+1
The posters insisting Kendall didn't do anything wrong are bizarre. Of course you call police, immediately! You certainly don't slink away and act like you weren't even there.

Literally no one has said Kendall didn't do anything wrong. The point was that it's wrong to refer to the death as a murder, because it wasn't one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I could not stop laughing about the widows and the mistresses all hanging out. Amazing, 10/10, no notes.

Also I called Roman's breakdown at the beginning of the episode. When he was rehearsing this eulogy in his apartment I told my DH that no way we'd see it at the real deal (you don't see speeches twice on TV) and also he was wound up so tight that his head was going to have to pop off at some point anyway. So that felt predictable to me.

[b]But Marcia comforting Kerry? Nope, not predictable, and I loved it. At least we don't have to listen to him grind his teeth tonight, eh ladies?! I died.[b]

So unexpected and surprisingly touching. Loved it

The Marcia/Kerry scene was the one scene where I cried. OK and maybe with Roman a little....poor kid. Great acting all around last night.

+1
I really dislike Kerry, but she acted that scene so well, where she couldn't even talk because she was about to sob. The funeral made me cry - both that scene and Kendall and Shiv's speeches.

Did you know that the woman that played Sally-Anne (Caroline referred to her as "her Kerry") is actually Brian Cox's real life wife!

https://time.com/6281707/succession-sally-ann-funeral/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I could not stop laughing about the widows and the mistresses all hanging out. Amazing, 10/10, no notes.

Also I called Roman's breakdown at the beginning of the episode. When he was rehearsing this eulogy in his apartment I told my DH that no way we'd see it at the real deal (you don't see speeches twice on TV) and also he was wound up so tight that his head was going to have to pop off at some point anyway. So that felt predictable to me.

[b]But Marcia comforting Kerry? Nope, not predictable, and I loved it. At least we don't have to listen to him grind his teeth tonight, eh ladies?! I died.[b]

So unexpected and surprisingly touching. Loved it

The Marcia/Kerry scene was the one scene where I cried. OK and maybe with Roman a little....poor kid. Great acting all around last night.

+1
I really dislike Kerry, but she acted that scene so well, where she couldn't even talk because she was about to sob. The funeral made me cry - both that scene and Kendall and Shiv's speeches.

I loved seeing the wives and mistresses, together. Also you could see that Logan really had a type!

The speeches made me cry, too, and I did not think I was emotionally invested in Logan Roy OR his terrible kids. I thought I was just there for the drama and comedy.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, it seemed pretty realistic to me that he would be irritated with Roman about it. He had some qualms about the Mencken thing, and then Rava refused to let the kids attend Logan's funeral based on the ensuing unrest.


I mean, Roman was a real ass on Election Night and ramrodded the ATN declaration for Mencken. If he didn’t secure the benefit to Waystar for those actions, then he screwed up majorly. Kendall didn’t want Mencken and was having qualms (which he selfishly overcame) so to discover that sacrifice (which lead indirectly to his ex and children fleeing town, etc) was for zero justifies Kendall’s harshness toward Roman.

Yes, we agree, and you have basically repeated what I said with more detail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Honestly, it seemed pretty realistic to me that he would be irritated with Roman about it. He had some qualms about the Mencken thing, and then Rava refused to let the kids attend Logan's funeral based on the ensuing unrest.


I mean, Roman was a real ass on Election Night and ramrodded the ATN declaration for Mencken. If he didn’t secure the benefit to Waystar for those actions, then he screwed up majorly. Kendall didn’t want Mencken and was having qualms (which he selfishly overcame) so to discover that sacrifice (which lead indirectly to his ex and children fleeing town, etc) was for zero justifies Kendall’s harshness toward Roman.

Yes, we agree, and you have basically repeated what I said with more detail.

Right. I was adding to what you said, not contradicting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

PP here. Well, maybe it was clear to me/is my impression but I chalk it up to three things:

1) Caroline remarking at least once, maybe more, that Logan took the kids off to America - not that they split time - the HE took them. And I feel like there was a comment about their accents;

2) When Logan sent the kids there to broach opening the divorce agreement and Caroline's requests weren't money, but a property that Logan loves because he loves it, and Christmas in England with the kids (this is the one that stood out to me - I found this really sad);

3) That he clearly controlled her with money - he bribed her to get her shares. He uses opening the divorce agreement to get something out of her.

Anyway, that's my impression of what happened. Which is why I also think Caroline pulled away emotionally from her children. She might have never been warm and hugely maternal, but she also wasn't allowed to the space to be either.

I was the poster who asked the question. Appreciate your response. I totally forgot about the Christmas part.

But, it feels like the kids despise Caroline. They make comments about her lack of mothering so that led me to believe she was cold and uninvolved by choice. Maybe Logan poisoned them against her.

Their father was controlling and narcissistic. It's probably a lot easier to believe your mom just wasn't a good mom instead of processing that you believe that in order to stay in the good graces of your controlling narcissistic dad and not that he deprived you of her presence and potential as a parent. Which doesn't mean Caroline is blameless. It seems complicated, but not entirely her fault.

+1

NP. It's everything at once. Yes, Caroline seems insufficiently caring or protective of her kids, but also Logan was a mean bastard and seemed to have taken them just to punish her, and because he had so much more money and power, it sounds like he simply overpowered her. She does seem cold and distant, but not as cold and distant as Logan, and surely he did in fact poison them against her because he was awful.

I think saying he deprived them of "her presence and potential as a parent" is correct. Being a parent is hard and if someone was telling you and your children that you are a bad parent and don't deserve them, it's very easy to simply become what you are being described as. That doesn't absolve Caroline of responsibility, but I don't think it's possible to view any of her actions as independent of how Logan treated her and handled their divorce. They are all tied up together.

If you can have empathy for the kids for having such a terrible upbringing, then I think you should be able to have empathy for Caroline for what she must have gone through as Logan's wife and then ex. Just like I can also empathize with Logan's childhood and how it scarred him. You can empathize with people and still hold them accountable for their actions that harm others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given that all the season finale titles have derived from John Berryman's Dream Song 29 in some way, I wonder what line of the poem the finale will derive from, and what that will say about the series?

https://www.distractify.com/p/all-the-bells-say-succession-meaning

Here's the poem fwiw:

There sat down, once, a thing on Henry’s heart / so heavy, if he had a hundred years / & more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time / Henry could not make good. / Starts again always in Henry’s ears / the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime. //

And there is another thing he has in mind / like a grave Sienese face a thousand years / would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly, / with open eyes, he attends, blind. / All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; / thinking. //

But never did Henry, as he thought he did, / end anyone and hacks her body up / and hide the pieces, where they may be found. / He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody’s missing. / Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up. / Nobody is ever missing. //

Maybe "Too late" -- but he's already used This is Not for Tears and All the Bells Say, which surround that. So maybe, if one of the kids really does betray everyone else, "And hide the pieces, where they may be found." Or maybe "In the Dawn."

This is very cool! I did not know this before. I love these kinds of things. I like "And Hide the Pieces, Where They May Be Found" as a last-episode title, but it might be too long. Maybe just the first or second half of that line.

Or perhaps, "He Went Over Everyone" -- a sort of metaphor for Logan's spirit/influence reaching from beyond the grave.

I also like "With Open Eyes," or "A Thousand Years Would Fail to Blur," but no specific ideas of how those lines would relate to the plot.

Aaaand the finale is called "With Open Eyes"!! So I was right about it being a quote from the (Berryman not Whitman doh) Dream Song that the other season finale's have quoted from, and YOU, PP, were right about the phrase. Nice work, us.

Given the context of the part it's being pulled from ("Ghastly, / with open eyes, he attends, blind. / All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; / thinking. //") I don't think it sounds like the finale is going to be a hearts and flowers ending for everyone. To me it suggests a range of things: the people in charge don't know what they're doing; generational trauma continues to haunt and affect the family, and get passed down, etc; nothing is really solved.

Oh, that's neat! I am the PP. This was a fun game! I'm so glad you posted about the poem -- I never would have known about that.


The best part of Sunday's episode was Ewan's speech. I was so, so happy they brought Ewan back. It was an amazing speech, so well-written. The actor seemed so much older and more tired, as is often the case when one loses a sibling.

The second-best part was Kendall's speech. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeremy Strong refused to rehearse that scene ahead of time -- it would make sense based on the New Yorker profile about him and his devotion to method acting. He did a stellar job with it.

I also liked the elaborate family crypt that Logan acquired in a deal with an internet pet-supply magnate. ROFL.

[Anonymous]

Cat food Ozymandias lol!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given that all the season finale titles have derived from John Berryman's Dream Song 29 in some way, I wonder what line of the poem the finale will derive from, and what that will say about the series?

https://www.distractify.com/p/all-the-bells-say-succession-meaning

Here's the poem fwiw:

There sat down, once, a thing on Henry’s heart / so heavy, if he had a hundred years / & more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time / Henry could not make good. / Starts again always in Henry’s ears / the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime. //

And there is another thing he has in mind / like a grave Sienese face a thousand years / would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly, / with open eyes, he attends, blind. / All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; / thinking. //

But never did Henry, as he thought he did, / end anyone and hacks her body up / and hide the pieces, where they may be found. / He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody’s missing. / Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up. / Nobody is ever missing. //

Maybe "Too late" -- but he's already used This is Not for Tears and All the Bells Say, which surround that. So maybe, if one of the kids really does betray everyone else, "And hide the pieces, where they may be found." Or maybe "In the Dawn."

This is very cool! I did not know this before. I love these kinds of things. I like "And Hide the Pieces, Where They May Be Found" as a last-episode title, but it might be too long. Maybe just the first or second half of that line.

Or perhaps, "He Went Over Everyone" -- a sort of metaphor for Logan's spirit/influence reaching from beyond the grave.

I also like "With Open Eyes," or "A Thousand Years Would Fail to Blur," but no specific ideas of how those lines would relate to the plot.

Aaaand the finale is called "With Open Eyes"!! So I was right about it being a quote from the (Berryman not Whitman doh) Dream Song that the other season finale's have quoted from, and YOU, PP, were right about the phrase. Nice work, us.

Given the context of the part it's being pulled from ("Ghastly, / with open eyes, he attends, blind. / All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; / thinking. //") I don't think it sounds like the finale is going to be a hearts and flowers ending for everyone. To me it suggests a range of things: the people in charge don't know what they're doing; generational trauma continues to haunt and affect the family, and get passed down, etc; nothing is really solved.

Oh, that's neat! I am the PP. This was a fun game! I'm so glad you posted about the poem -- I never would have known about that.


The best part of Sunday's episode was Ewan's speech. I was so, so happy they brought Ewan back. It was an amazing speech, so well-written. The actor seemed so much older and more tired, as is often the case when one loses a sibling.

The second-best part was Kendall's speech. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeremy Strong refused to rehearse that scene ahead of time -- it would make sense based on the New Yorker profile about him and his devotion to method acting. He did a stellar job with it.

I also liked the elaborate family crypt that Logan acquired in a deal with an internet pet-supply magnate. ROFL.

Agreed. Both of these were really stellar. (Then Shiv's was not great, but she sure had some good points.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

Re Shiv, her automatic response to Lucas' negative reaction to her pregnancy brought forth the inevitable truth that she will be a mother like her own. The fruit doesn't fall far...

I commented a long way back - like last season - that Shiv's reluctance to get pregnant was because she knows how much power she would lose. Kind of the whole "he couldn't fit a whole woman inside his head" comment. There's a reason there's an entire anti-discrimination law for pregnancy. Tech bros are kind of notorious for this sort of misogyny, so Matsson's comment is not surprising, and Shiv's response minimizing what having a child will do to her work life is also not surprising in order to ingratiate herself with him (what she actually does we'll never know).

We won't get to see how Shiv parents, but in her mom's case I think it was self-preservation and a bit of revenge/way to get back at Logan. It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children. A natural defense mechanism would be to pull back and not get too emotionally involved because you don't know how much intimacy and attachment you will be allowed to have. I think Shiv actually wants genuine emotional engagement, but doesn't know how to handle it. That's why she does destructive things like tell Tom she wants an open marriage or tells him she doesn't love him as a "joke." If she really felt nothing she'd have had the divorce papers served and if she decided to have the child she would have cut him out as much as possible. But she's still trying to have a happy family possibility even now.

This is great analysis. I love Shiv ... can't help it ... and I think she will struggle but might ultimately become a good mom. The kid might provoke the "genuine emotional engagement."

Also, Caroline is so terrible, but her lines are excellent! The scene where she realizes Shiv is pregnant!