Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shiv - I’m pregnant.

Roman - is it mine?

😳

OMG I laughed so hard. I had to go back and rewind to see the rest of that scene because I couldn't stop giggling and missed it. His random inappropriate quips are one of my favorite parts of this show.

[Anonymous]

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Honestly, it seemed pretty realistic to me that he would be irritated with Roman about it. He had some qualms about the Mencken thing, and then Rava refused to let the kids attend Logan's funeral based on the ensuing unrest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

Re Shiv, her automatic response to Lucas' negative reaction to her pregnancy brought forth the inevitable truth that she will be a mother like her own. The fruit doesn't fall far...

I commented a long way back - like last season - that Shiv's reluctance to get pregnant was because she knows how much power she would lose. Kind of the whole "he couldn't fit a whole woman inside his head" comment. There's a reason there's an entire anti-discrimination law for pregnancy. Tech bros are kind of notorious for this sort of misogyny, so Matsson's comment is not surprising, and Shiv's response minimizing what having a child will do to her work life is also not surprising in order to ingratiate herself with him (what she actually does we'll never know).

We won't get to see how Shiv parents, but in her mom's case I think it was self-preservation and a bit of revenge/way to get back at Logan. It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children. A natural defense mechanism would be to pull back and not get too emotionally involved because you don't know how much intimacy and attachment you will be allowed to have. I think Shiv actually wants genuine emotional engagement, but doesn't know how to handle it. That's why she does destructive things like tell Tom she wants an open marriage or tells him she doesn't love him as a "joke." If she really felt nothing she'd have had the divorce papers served and if she decided to have the child she would have cut him out as much as possible. But she's still trying to have a happy family possibility even now.

I wrote the post above. Your post is very insightful. I also think she knows it will be a struggle for her to be a mom and also to have a successful relationship. My bet is that she and Tom stay together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

They were in England where the accident occurred.

[Anonymous]

So it seems like Roman is out of the running. And maybe even winds up dead, suicide or self inflicted, to give whoever wins Waystar between the other two siblings (Kendall or Shiv) a special serving of guilt to go with their crown, just like their dad had from giving polio to Rose (whether he did or not).

Does the Dream Song poem fit in here to say that the kids will never feel guilt over the things they have done to get power, they will never SEE the dead bodies as being a result of their own actions, even if they really were? In the poem it seems as though Henry tries to perform an accounting for dead bodies and can't ever find any, so concludes he is blameless. (And as the reader I thought we were supposed to think he was blameless.) But in the series, it's clear there is a lot of blame originating with these people. They just don't particularly feel it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

Kendall didn't tell anyone and didn't try to get help immediately because he was high and would have been in trouble.

Yes, but that still isn't a murder.

Isn't it illegal to leave the scene of a vehicular accident like that in most jurisdictions without reporting it? Whether or not it's technically murder, I think he broke the law and he knows it, and it's something that was both immoral and that would get in the way of him being in charge of the whole company.

How the other kids fighting for control could let this sit out there for so long without raising it against Kendall now that he seems to be assuming the reigns -- even though it would be unsibling-like behavior, I'm pretty sure we're meant to understand these siblings are so needful of power and craven that they will do almost anything -- is a weird thing I don't understand, unless it's being saved for the finale.

Did it sound like the Swede was suggesting that Shiv get rid of the baby because she wouldn't have time, and Shiv did a little distraction dance of how negligent of a mother she'd be so that she could both be CEO and a mom? Wonder whether the Swede might come back to that and insist on it just to torture her, because he enjoys playing games like that (and Shiv would explain to Tom that she's getting rid of it at Swede's request, additional bonus torture for Tom).

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Maybe the poison drips down, indeed. And Kendall wants custody of his kids?

They were in England where the accident occurred.

"It's common knowledge that you must stop at the scene of any accident that you were involved in" in the UK: https://www.passmefast.co.uk/witness-accident

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So it seems like Roman is out of the running. And maybe even winds up dead, suicide or self inflicted, to give whoever wins Waystar between the other two siblings (Kendall or Shiv) a special serving of guilt to go with their crown, just like their dad had from giving polio to Rose (whether he did or not).

Does the Dream Song poem fit in here to say that the kids will never feel guilt over the things they have done to get power, they will never SEE the dead bodies as being a result of their own actions, even if they really were? In the poem it seems as though Henry tries to perform an accounting for dead bodies and can't ever find any, so concludes he is blameless. (And as the reader I thought we were supposed to think he was blameless.) But in the series, it's clear there is a lot of blame originating with these people. They just don't particularly feel it.

For more on the poem and the series:
https://www.elitedaily.com/entertainment/poem-dream-song-twenty-nine-predict-succession-finale (reminds us that in the poem, Henry is grieving his dead father "with open eyes" -- whoops hadn't realized that.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/05/succession-series-finale-john-berryman-poem -- great close reading of the poem and comparison to Succession events up through the election episode.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shiv - I’m pregnant.

Roman - is it mine?

😳

OMG I laughed so hard. I had to go back and rewind to see the rest of that scene because I couldn't stop giggling and missed it. His random inappropriate quips are one of my favorite parts of this show.

That scene was hysterical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It seemed like Kendall was being pretty tough on Roman at the end. I thought it was interesting that he wasn't giving Roman a tough time for having messed up the eulogy (family obligation), but for having messed up the deal with Mencken so they had no bargaining power left (work obligation), and he was going in on him pretty hard after he was already having a tough time. His jerkiness did remind me of Logan -- he wants what he wants whenever and at whatever cost.

Honestly, it seemed pretty realistic to me that he would be irritated with Roman about it. He had some qualms about the Mencken thing, and then Rava refused to let the kids attend Logan's funeral based on the ensuing unrest.

I mean, Roman was a real ass on Election Night and ramrodded the ATN declaration for Mencken. If he didn’t secure the benefit to Waystar for those actions, then he screwed up majorly. Kendall didn’t want Mencken and was having qualms (which he selfishly overcame) so to discover that sacrifice (which lead indirectly to his ex and children fleeing town, etc) was for zero justifies Kendall’s harshness toward Roman.

[Anonymous]

"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

As a British person, I can tell you, there is no such thing. It's a stereotype, like "All Americans are fat"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"It's clear in the series that Logan controlled how much Caroline saw her own children."

Is it? I don't recall them sharing specifics. Caroline seems like a typical English woman of her generation and wealth: not very engaged with her children. Shiv says as much in this last episode. It never felt like Logan had to do much to get custody but maybe I missed something?

I loved the "meagerness" description of Logan. My parents both grew up poor and my mother grew up in post-war England which was very hard. But, they've always been naturally loving, generous people even though they've never accumulated wealth. My MIL, on the other hand, also grew up poor and she is very meager now despite being very wealthy. I wonder what factors determine which way you go?

PP here. Well, maybe it was clear to me/is my impression but I chalk it up to three things:

1) Caroline remarking at least once, maybe more, that Logan took the kids off to America - not that they split time - the HE took them. And I feel like there was a comment about their accents;

2) When Logan sent the kids there to broach opening the divorce agreement and Caroline's requests weren't money, but a property that Logan loves because he loves it, and Christmas in England with the kids (this is the one that stood out to me - I found this really sad);

3) That he clearly controlled her with money - he bribed her to get her shares. He uses opening the divorce agreement to get something out of her.

Anyway, that's my impression of what happened. Which is why I also think Caroline pulled away emotionally from her children. She might have never been warm and hugely maternal, but she also wasn't allowed to the space to be either.

[Anonymous]

How about when Tom took a glass of champagne and sipped it; and then Shiv deliberately took a glass of champagne, looked Tom in the eye and sipped it. And said "It's okay" and he said "I know".

That one gesture said (loudly): "Even though I am pregnant and will be a mother, I'm not going to let anyone tell me what to do. I am also not going to be be 'one of those mothers' that irrationally gives up everything."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kendall's afraid colin's gonna blab about murder.

So- I hear it referred to as "the murder" a lot- but I honestly don't remember Ken murdering the caterer. The caterer was driving and he was high on ketamine. Ken saw that he was about to hit a deer or something, and grabbed the wheel to swerve (or was Ken driving and the caterer grabbed the wheel to swerve? Doesn't really matter to be honest, it was an honest accident by two really impaired individuals who made a decision to drive off in a car together at night time). The car went in the water. Ken escaped, and DOVE DOWN TO TRY TO HELP THE CATERER, but couldn't get him out, and realized he was dead. So then instead of calling the British equivalent of 911 (which, let's be honest, was not going to save his life!) he ran back to the hotel and tried to cover up his involvement in the accident.

At WORST it is like a hit and run where the victim is 10000% dead at the scene, and it was a true accident where both parties and neither party were really to blame, and the driver did not stick around. I cannot see how it could be considered a murder. The only reason Ken feels that it is a murder, is because of his massive guilt complex around his drug use.

Kendall was driving but the caterer grabbed the wheel and steered the car into the water. It was the caterer's fault.

DP. Kendall may have dove into the water and tried valiantly to save the caterer, but he then decided not to report it and to pretend he hadn't even been there. THAT is the crime - the coverup. Not the death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I could not stop laughing about the widows and the mistresses all hanging out. Amazing, 10/10, no notes.

Also I called Roman's breakdown at the beginning of the episode. When he was rehearsing this eulogy in his apartment I told my DH that no way we'd see it at the real deal (you don't see speeches twice on TV) and also he was wound up so tight that his head was going to have to pop off at some point anyway. So that felt predictable to me.

[b]But Marcia comforting Kerry? Nope, not predictable, and I loved it. At least we don't have to listen to him grind his teeth tonight, eh ladies?! I died.[b]

So unexpected and surprisingly touching. Loved it

The Marcia/Kerry scene was the one scene where I cried. OK and maybe with Roman a little....poor kid. Great acting all around last night.

+1
I really dislike Kerry, but she acted that scene so well, where she couldn't even talk because she was about to sob. The funeral made me cry - both that scene and Kendall and Shiv's speeches.