Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

The goalposts keep moving, it started with hostages and now we are at complete removal of Hamas. The truth is this a golden opportunity for Israelis to full fill their cherished dream of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It’s too good an opportunity to pass on.

DP. I think Israel started with the goal of the removal of Hamas and has been continuing with that all along. They seem to have started with the assumption that all the hostages were already dead (something I initially assumed also) and some of them keep turning up alive, amazingly, months and months later.

They didn't start with that assumption. They just didn't care. Hostage taking is unfortunately a long standing tactic in this conflict. Terry Anderson was held for almost 7 years by Hezbollah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

That’s a lie. What they agreed to is that if they don’t have enough living hostages that meet the definition of who is released during the first phase, they will make it up with remains.

What this is about is that Hamas does not want to release IDF personnel hostages until they have to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

That’s a lie. What they agreed to is that if they don’t have enough living hostages that meet the definition of who is released during the first phase, they will make it up with remains.

What this is about is that Hamas does not want to release IDF personnel hostages until they have to.

Making up the difference with remains is clearly unacceptable. That is what we call no deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

That’s a lie. What they agreed to is that if they don’t have enough living hostages that meet the definition of who is released during the first phase, they will make it up with remains.

What this is about is that Hamas does not want to release IDF personnel hostages until they have to.

Making up the difference with remains is clearly unacceptable. That is what we call no deal.

Clearly, you and I are not deciding what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. William Burns okayed it, clearly the deal was not that bad as Israelis are portraying it to be. They just don’t want to go down this route because then Netanyahu’s career is over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

That’s a lie. What they agreed to is that if they don’t have enough living hostages that meet the definition of who is released during the first phase, they will make it up with remains.

What this is about is that Hamas does not want to release IDF personnel hostages until they have to.

Says who?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

What about deradicalization of Israel? There can be no peace until Israel recognizes Palestinians as human beings.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

The goalposts keep moving, it started with hostages and now we are at complete removal of Hamas. The truth is this a golden opportunity for Israelis to full fill their cherished dream of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It’s too good an opportunity to pass on.

DP. I think Israel started with the goal of the removal of Hamas and has been continuing with that all along. They seem to have started with the assumption that all the hostages were already dead (something I initially assumed also) and some of them keep turning up alive, amazingly, months and months later.

They didn't start with that assumption. They just didn't care. Hostage taking is unfortunately a long standing tactic in this conflict. Terry Anderson was held for almost 7 years by Hezbollah.

Like this guy! Most likely tortured to death.

A Palestinian doctor from the Gaza Strip, detained by Israeli forces and held for four months, has died in detention, Palestinian officials and detainee rights groups say.

Dr. Adnan Ahmad Albursh, 50, the head of orthopedics at Al-Shifa Hospital, the Gaza Strip’s biggest medical center, was detained along with other doctors in December by Israeli forces when they raided a hospital, according to the Palestinian Commission of Detainees’ Affairs and the Palestinian Prisoners Club, which advocate for the rights of Palestinian detainees held by Israel.

Israel’s military and prison service did not immediately respond to requests for comment. The Times of Israel cited the military as confirming that the Israeli prison service had declared Dr. Albursh dead on April 19, without giving a cause of death. It said he had been detained for national security reasons.

Israel has detained thousands of Palestinians from Gaza, including women and children. Former detainees have said that they suffered beatings and other physical abuse in Israeli custody, and the United Nations human rights office has said Israel’s treatment of detainees might amount to torture, which Israel denies. International human rights groups say they have been denied access to detainees.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/03/world/middleeast/doctor-died-israeli-detention.html#:~:text=Dr.%20Adnan%20Albursh%20died%20in,detention%2C%20according%20to%20Palestinian%20officials.&text=A%20Palestinian%20doctor%20from%20the,and%20detainee%20rights%20groups%20say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

Look I understand they are terrorists, but it seems like corpses are important to people. It said in pp's chart that Hamas also wanted Palestinian corpses from Israel. There was a story about a Palestinian man who quickly buried his children near the hospital, and when he went back for them they weren't there. I think they know it's in their best interest to keep people alive, but with Israel's indiscriminate bombing, they may have killed hostages. They killed 3 hostages (waving white flags) because they thought they were Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

Look I understand they are terrorists, but it seems like corpses are important to people. It said in pp's chart that Hamas also wanted Palestinian corpses from Israel. There was a story about a Palestinian man who quickly buried his children near the hospital, and when he went back for them they weren't there. I think they know it's in their best interest to keep people alive, but with Israel's indiscriminate bombing, they may have killed hostages. They killed 3 hostages (waving white flags) because they thought they were Hamas.

A reminder that no Israeli hostage would be dead had they not been taken hostage by Hamas, and no Palestinian in Gaza would be dead had Hamas not attacked Israel. Israel wants to prioritize live hostages, and rightfully so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

Look I understand they are terrorists, but it seems like corpses are important to people. It said in pp's chart that Hamas also wanted Palestinian corpses from Israel. There was a story about a Palestinian man who quickly buried his children near the hospital, and when he went back for them they weren't there. I think they know it's in their best interest to keep people alive, but with Israel's indiscriminate bombing, they may have killed hostages. They killed 3 hostages (waving white flags) because they thought they were Hamas.

A reminder that no Israeli hostage would be dead had they not been taken hostage by Hamas, and no Palestinian in Gaza would be dead had Hamas not attacked Israel. Israel wants to prioritize live hostages, and rightfully so.

Yes, a friend told me that every Palestinian death can be blamed on Hamas, and that nobody likes Palestinians. So, sadly I understand she isn't alone in her thinking. (Which I believe seems like a convenient rationale to justify an actual genocide.)

But, Netanyu is not prioritizing hostages. Thousands of Israeli wouldn't be protesting rn if he was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

That’s a lie. What they agreed to is that if they don’t have enough living hostages that meet the definition of who is released during the first phase, they will make it up with remains.

What this is about is that Hamas does not want to release IDF personnel hostages until they have to.

Making up the difference with remains is clearly unacceptable. That is what we call no deal.

That’s why the deal is staged. You don’t like how the first stage went, you can stop before stage 2, but you’re saying it’s not even worth a try?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

The goalposts keep moving, it started with hostages and now we are at complete removal of Hamas. The truth is this a golden opportunity for Israelis to full fill their cherished dream of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It’s too good an opportunity to pass on.

The goal was always the removal of Hamas, Israel has been very, very clear that their primary goal, regardless of the hostages, was the removal and dissolution of Hamas.

This is the exact same goal Bebe and Israel have been telling the US (and the world) since October 9th: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/09/netanyahu-ground-invasion-gaza-israel-hamas-biden

Nobody is moving the goalposts, nor is Israel asking for any special treatment beyond what would be provided to any other Country in the world: no other nation on this planet would be expected to negotiated with recognized international terrorists whose sole goal is the commission of genocide against them.

Sure, the return of the hostages at this point would be great, but any reasonable person is well aware that the likelihood any living hostages remain is incredibly low, and that never was the sole, or even primary goal of Israel’s offensive, it was always the removal of Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

The goalposts keep moving, it started with hostages and now we are at complete removal of Hamas. The truth is this a golden opportunity for Israelis to full fill their cherished dream of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It’s too good an opportunity to pass on.

The goal was always the removal of Hamas, Israel has been very, very clear that their primary goal, regardless of the hostages, was the removal and dissolution of Hamas.

This is the exact same goal Bebe and Israel have been telling the US (and the world) since October 9th: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/09/netanyahu-ground-invasion-gaza-israel-hamas-biden

Nobody is moving the goalposts, nor is Israel asking for any special treatment beyond what would be provided to any other Country in the world: no other nation on this planet would be expected to negotiated with recognized international terrorists whose sole goal is the commission of genocide against them.

Sure, the return of the hostages at this point would be great, but any reasonable person is well aware that the likelihood any living hostages remain is incredibly low, and that never was the sole, or even primary goal of Israel’s offensive, it was always the removal of Hamas.

No the primary goal was to punish, terrorize and kill the Palestinians. It’s not about Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the proposal Israel rejected.

There is no ceasefire unless Hamas is removed from all and any governmental functions, all Hamas members, supporters, and affiliates (including those in the UN) are tried and punished by a neutral third party led by the United State, and a clear plan to deradicalize Palestinians is put in place.

There can be no peace until there is no Hamas. That has always been the goal. There can be temporary agreements to return hostages, but there is no reasonable world where Israel surrenders unconditionally.

Hamas did not agree to free living hostages. It proposed to substitute corpses.

Look I understand they are terrorists, but it seems like corpses are important to people. It said in pp's chart that Hamas also wanted Palestinian corpses from Israel. There was a story about a Palestinian man who quickly buried his children near the hospital, and when he went back for them they weren't there. I think they know it's in their best interest to keep people alive, but with Israel's indiscriminate bombing, they may have killed hostages. They killed 3 hostages (waving white flags) because they thought they were Hamas.

A reminder that no Israeli hostage would be dead had they not been taken hostage by Hamas, and no Palestinian in Gaza would be dead had Hamas not attacked Israel. Israel wants to prioritize live hostages, and rightfully so.

That is false. All the Palestinians killed before Oct this year(200 plus) would still be dead plus the constant 20 killed a month. Israel has not and will not “prioritize” the hostages. They never have. Stop with year worthless propaganda.

[Anonymous]

So the Rafah action right now is limited according to the newscast I heard earlier today.

My question: even if no ceasefire, why could Israel not simply hold its position as of before taking over the border and let talks continue?

I assume Hamas has no way of acquiring additional weapons or soldiers, certainly not of any significance. We know Hamas--in terms of the ideas Hamas represents--cannot be totally obliterated. It took what, 600 years for England and Ireland to mostly settle their differences? (Talk about people who won't stop fighting each other.)The Irish during the 70s were not the same individuals who had fought England for centuries, the idea was sustained through generation after generation. The very reason Judaism remains Judaism is because ideas about core identity do not disappear until the people who hold those ideas abandon them.