The New America: Elite Privates forever out of reach for UMC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you all complain that you can’t afford a Maserati while you’re at it? people who have HHIs In the six figures complaining about not being able to pay for things is really eye opening.

This is a silly thing to say. Are you 18?

The point of this thread is that college tuition raises have so greatly outstripped inflation and salary growth that it's priced out many people who otherwise could have afforded full tuition in the past. Colleges are not Maseratis. It's become a real burden for most working families, whether upper middle or lower middle class. Not being able to afford a Maserati is not a burden.

So what? A thing you want costs $X. You cannot afford it. If this was anything else it would be a nonevent. How is this suddenly a problem to care about? A burden is not being able to afford housing or health care. Or food. Missing out on an expensive private college is not.

Are you a parent or a student? I'm mildly curious. Because children rarely understand the true cost of things or the burdens of large expenditures in real life.

At the end of the day, whether it's an expensive Ivy or a state university, college tuitions are much higher than they were in the past and the rate of tuition increases have outstripped inflation since the early 1980s. There are plenty of examples on this thread of experiences paying for colleges, whether private or public, back in the 1970s and 1980s, in a way that is not feasible. Students used to be able to pay their way through college.

That this is no longer possible for the vast majority of people, even higher income households, means it is indeed a problem to care about. Why are colleges so expensive? No one really understands why.

Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level. The attitude of dismissing their concerns and then whining how dare they complain they can no longer afford to pay the high college tuition is a bit of a Marie Antoinette thing to do.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

^^^ All of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you all complain that you can’t afford a Maserati while you’re at it? people who have HHIs In the six figures complaining about not being able to pay for things is really eye opening.

This is a silly thing to say. Are you 18?

The point of this thread is that college tuition raises have so greatly outstripped inflation and salary growth that it's priced out many people who otherwise could have afforded full tuition in the past. Colleges are not Maseratis. It's become a real burden for most working families, whether upper middle or lower middle class. Not being able to afford a Maserati is not a burden.

So what? A thing you want costs $X. You cannot afford it. If this was anything else it would be a nonevent. How is this suddenly a problem to care about? A burden is not being able to afford housing or health care. Or food. Missing out on an expensive private college is not.

Are you a parent or a student? I'm mildly curious. Because children rarely understand the true cost of things or the burdens of large expenditures in real life.

At the end of the day, whether it's an expensive Ivy or a state university, college tuitions are much higher than they were in the past and the rate of tuition increases have outstripped inflation since the early 1980s. There are plenty of examples on this thread of experiences paying for colleges, whether private or public, back in the 1970s and 1980s, in a way that is not feasible. Students used to be able to pay their way through college.

That this is no longer possible for the vast majority of people, even higher income households, means it is indeed a problem to care about. Why are colleges so expensive? No one really understands why.

Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level. The attitude of dismissing their concerns and then whining how dare they complain they can no longer afford to pay the high college tuition is a bit of a Marie Antoinette thing to do.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

I'm a parent with two in college and two to go. I told my kids what we could afford and what we couldn't. Just like I told them why we live where we live, why we drive the cars that we drive and we vacation where we vacation. I also am glad that I could send them to college, keep them housed, healthy, clothed and fed. There are plenty of people out there who have trouble just doing that, so whether we could afford to send my kids to some SLAC or other 'elite private' schools doesn't really seem like a thing to complain about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP, but a substantial number of my HS friends, in the mixed-SES town I grew up, in attended top-20 schools: Harvard, Yale, Brown, Williams, Amherst, Dartmouth - those are the names I recall off the top of my head.

In our generation (I'm 58yo), the cost of attendance could be covered from savings, current income, the student's summer earnings, work study, and some modest loans. E.g. the expensive private SLAC I attended cost about $8,000 when I started in 1979, and I contributed about 25% of that from my summer and school-year work. Proportionally, a student today would have to contribute almost $25,000 to make the same dent in the same school's costs.

Adjusted for inflation, $8,000.00 in 1979 is equal to $29,687.80 in 2019. But that school now costs almost $75,000/year.

+1

I'm 59 and this describes the shift well.

It's really about who gets access to the elite institutions and therefore into the ruling class.

I'm in the same age bracket. My experience is that I know very successful people with community college and state college degrees. A lot of the Ivy League grads that I know honestly didn't amount to much and worked secretarial
jobs that they could have done with a high school degree. The male Ivy League grads that I know tutor for test prep companies.

I know a guy who is extremely successful who didn’t go to college but did drugs for a decade after high school. I guess that’s the best path.

Kid, I'm an Ivy grad. Two degrees when you get down to it. I'm in my 40s and after working in the professional world for 20+ years (in other words, real life) the more I came to realize an Ivy degree is nice but doesn't say much. You'd be surprised at how many Ivy grads float through life in unremarkable positions while state school grads, and not even just from the big state universities but genuine no-name local state schools in Podunkville are blossoming in their careers and making fortunes and achieving senior positions. The return on the investment for an Ivy degree over UVA or MD is minimal. If you're capable enough to go to an Ivy, you will do well in life if you apply yourself regardless of what school you went to.

This is precisely and exactly what the research shows. Which makes all of this handwringing even more silly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with those calculators is they tend to assume that whatever your current HHI is (or last three years), that you've had it for the last 20 or whatever. I stayed home for a while when the kids were young, then worked for a nonprofit, then adjuncted for awhile and got a job in educational administration when my kids were in high school! There was nothing to stash away during the lean years, but the calculators all assume that you have had the same income for your whole adult working life.

I guess I just feel like YOU made the choice to stay home and work in lower paying jobs. Part of being an adult is owning our choices and taking responsibility for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you all complain that you can’t afford a Maserati while you’re at it? people who have HHIs In the six figures complaining about not being able to pay for things is really eye opening.

This is a silly thing to say. Are you 18?

The point of this thread is that college tuition raises have so greatly outstripped inflation and salary growth that it's priced out many people who otherwise could have afforded full tuition in the past. Colleges are not Maseratis. It's become a real burden for most working families, whether upper middle or lower middle class. Not being able to afford a Maserati is not a burden.

So what? A thing you want costs $X. You cannot afford it. If this was anything else it would be a nonevent. How is this suddenly a problem to care about? A burden is not being able to afford housing or health care. Or food. Missing out on an expensive private college is not.

Are you a parent or a student? I'm mildly curious. Because children rarely understand the true cost of things or the burdens of large expenditures in real life.

At the end of the day, whether it's an expensive Ivy or a state university, college tuitions are much higher than they were in the past and the rate of tuition increases have outstripped inflation since the early 1980s. There are plenty of examples on this thread of experiences paying for colleges, whether private or public, back in the 1970s and 1980s, in a way that is not feasible. Students used to be able to pay their way through college.

That this is no longer possible for the vast majority of people, even higher income households, means it is indeed a problem to care about. Why are colleges so expensive? No one really understands why.

Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level. The attitude of dismissing their concerns and then whining how dare they complain they can no longer afford to pay the high college tuition is a bit of a Marie Antoinette thing to do.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

I'm a parent with two in college and two to go. I told my kids what we could afford and what we couldn't. Just like I told them why we live where we live, why we drive the cars that we drive and we vacation where we vacation. I also am glad that I could send them to college, keep them housed, healthy, clothed and fed. There are plenty of people out there who have trouble just doing that, so whether we could afford to send my kids to some SLAC or other 'elite private' schools doesn't really seem like a thing to complain about.

Great for you. But others are concerned at how it is a reflection of the distorted and increasingly broken higher education system and the mismatch between the cultural expectations placed on academic success and its rewards and the monetary realities. I'm sure it's never easy for a parent to tell a child that he can't go to an Ivy or Amherst because they can't afford it and it's because they both make too much money and too little money

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you all complain that you can’t afford a Maserati while you’re at it? people who have HHIs In the six figures complaining about not being able to pay for things is really eye opening.

This is a silly thing to say. Are you 18?

The point of this thread is that college tuition raises have so greatly outstripped inflation and salary growth that it's priced out many people who otherwise could have afforded full tuition in the past. Colleges are not Maseratis. It's become a real burden for most working families, whether upper middle or lower middle class. Not being able to afford a Maserati is not a burden.

So what? A thing you want costs $X. You cannot afford it. If this was anything else it would be a nonevent. How is this suddenly a problem to care about? A burden is not being able to afford housing or health care. Or food. Missing out on an expensive private college is not.

Are you a parent or a student? I'm mildly curious. Because children rarely understand the true cost of things or the burdens of large expenditures in real life.

At the end of the day, whether it's an expensive Ivy or a state university, college tuitions are much higher than they were in the past and the rate of tuition increases have outstripped inflation since the early 1980s. There are plenty of examples on this thread of experiences paying for colleges, whether private or public, back in the 1970s and 1980s, in a way that is not feasible. Students used to be able to pay their way through college.

That this is no longer possible for the vast majority of people, even higher income households, means it is indeed a problem to care about. Why are colleges so expensive? No one really understands why.

Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level. The attitude of dismissing their concerns and then whining how dare they complain they can no longer afford to pay the high college tuition is a bit of a Marie Antoinette thing to do.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

I'm a parent with two in college and two to go. I told my kids what we could afford and what we couldn't. Just like I told them why we live where we live, why we drive the cars that we drive and we vacation where we vacation. I also am glad that I could send them to college, keep them housed, healthy, clothed and fed. There are plenty of people out there who have trouble just doing that, so whether we could afford to send my kids to some SLAC or other 'elite private' schools doesn't really seem like a thing to complain about.

Great for you. But others are concerned at how it is a reflection of the distorted and increasingly broken higher education system and the mismatch between the cultural expectations placed on academic success and its rewards and the monetary realities. I'm sure it's never easy for a parent to tell a child that he can't go to an Ivy or Amherst because they can't afford it and it's because they both make too much money and too little money

Um. Yes. It is very easy. What am I missing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Can afford” is subjective, and what a financial aid office thinks may be different than what a family thinks. At elites - the subject of this thread - the financial aid is more generous than anywhere else by far.

One fortunate thing is that any family with an elite-worthy kid can get merit aid at a lot of excellent schools if they decide they do not want to be full pay.

A second fortunate thing is that any family who does not qualify for financial aid at an elite certainly can afford many colleges with merit aid, which may include in-state options making the top line costs less to begin with.

Any family with those three options: Pay for an Ivy, get merit aid elsewhere, pay less at your in-state school - is a very lucky family indeed.

No one disputes that such family has options. But that's not the point of the OP or the comments above.

No, you miss the point of my post. The family is EXTRAORDINARILY LUCKY to have options that 99% of families don't and wish they did. To complain about the premium choice being "expensive" is very distasteful. The same formula are used for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level.

Your part in bold: "worth it" is subjective, and you'd be better off just saying "I can afford it but I don't think it is worth it". That's completely acceptable.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

Again to the parts in bold: They are people who have done the research, run the NPCs, and quite probably prepared for the occurrence.

Personally I am full pay at an Ivy and a NESCAC. Yeah I'd love to have a beach house but that is not what I saved for during the last 20 years. And I feel good about it. My choice, you make yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with those calculators is they tend to assume that whatever your current HHI is (or last three years), that you've had it for the last 20 or whatever. I stayed home for a while when the kids were young, then worked for a nonprofit, then adjuncted for awhile and got a job in educational administration when my kids were in high school! There was nothing to stash away during the lean years, but the calculators all assume that you have had the same income for your whole adult working life.

I guess I just feel like YOU made the choice to stay home and work in lower paying jobs. Part of being an adult is owning our choices and taking responsibility for them.

Seriously. Do moms who quit their jobs not realize this??

[Anonymous]

Classic “I don’t have any money left after I spend it all” thread.

College pricing is now more differentiated than ever. The donut hole that existed when I was a kid has actually been fixed. You just don’t like being asked to save what you could have, if you had made it a priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level.

Your part in bold: "worth it" is subjective, and you'd be better off just saying "I can afford it but I don't think it is worth it". That's completely acceptable.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

Again to the parts in bold: They are people who have done the research, run the NPCs, and quite probably prepared for the occurrence.

Personally I am full pay at an Ivy and a NESCAC. Yeah I'd love to have a beach house but that is not what I saved for during the last 20 years. And I feel good about it. My choice, you make yours.

Cool it Marie Antoinette.

Being judgmental about other people's lifestyle decisions or career decisions that are not "bad" decisions is petty and silly. As is dismissing other people's pointing out the flaws in the higher education economic model. The whole model is morally bankrupt if it demands this degree of financial sacrifice that could nearly bankrupt a family. It's effectively robbing the rich to pay the poor and telling the donut hole "middle" to suck it up without any sympathy.

Of course many in the donut middle are looking at other options and making things work, but trying to shame people for talking about the increasingly unsustainable world of higher education costs only makes you, well, Marie Antoinette.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level. The attitude of dismissing their concerns and then whining how dare they complain they can no longer afford to pay the high college tuition is a bit of a Marie Antoinette thing to do.

Now this is astounding to me: UMC people not realizing THEY are on the same side as Marie Antoinette.

Unbelievable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level.

Your part in bold: "worth it" is subjective, and you'd be better off just saying "I can afford it but I don't think it is worth it". That's completely acceptable.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

Again to the parts in bold: They are people who have done the research, run the NPCs, and quite probably prepared for the occurrence.

Personally I am full pay at an Ivy and a NESCAC. Yeah I'd love to have a beach house but that is not what I saved for during the last 20 years. And I feel good about it. My choice, you make yours.

Cool it Marie Antoinette.

Being judgmental about other people's lifestyle decisions or career decisions that are not "bad" decisions is petty and silly. As is dismissing other people's pointing out the flaws in the higher education economic model. The whole model is morally bankrupt if it demands this degree of financial sacrifice that could nearly bankrupt a family. It's effectively robbing the rich to pay the poor and telling the donut hole "middle" to suck it up without any sympathy.

Of course many in the donut middle are looking at other options and making things work, but trying to shame people for talking about the increasingly unsustainable world of higher education costs only makes you, well, Marie Antoinette.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Classic “I don’t have any money left after I spend it all” thread.

College pricing is now more differentiated than ever. The donut hole that existed when I was a kid has actually been fixed. You just don’t like being asked to save what you could have, if you had made it a priority.

Oh, really? Then this entire thread and all these posters' experiences are just made up stories?

Kid, someday when you grow up, you will realize life is not fair. Most people don't jump straight into 6 figure salaries upon graduation with no debt. There are things like life expenses that get in the way. There are things like bad economies and unemployment. There are things like oh, Mom needs financial help. There are many, many things that get into the way of being able to build up the kind of savings to pay for an Ivy degree without assistance while still being responsible for your retirement and having a decent place to live and living a decent life.

Shrugs. No one is entitled to a fancy degree. We all know that. But whining that parents didn't save enough money and should be shamed is a childish thing to do when you don't have any clue as to what their life story was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even with all the talk of financial aid obscures the large middle ground demographics that used to be able to afford expensive private colleges in the past, the upper middle classes (or lower upper middle class if we want to narrow it more specifically) are now priced out - they don't get financial aid or only a token amount, and they can't really cover the full tuition without enormous financial sacrifice that is not worth it at that level.

Your part in bold: "worth it" is subjective, and you'd be better off just saying "I can afford it but I don't think it is worth it". That's completely acceptable.

Funnily enough, all the defensive posters talking about the amazing financial aids at the Ivies don't talk about it relative to their own kids. Did their kids get amazing packages? Or are they just making an assumption without firsthand experience? There are certainly those who get full or substantial financial packages but the funny thing is that package offers can and do vary widely between the Ivies for admitted students and that alone tells you something about not taking it for granted anyone with a HHI under x amount is getting a full ride, or even with a HHI of 150 or whatever they'll get the aid they need to make it work.

Again to the parts in bold: They are people who have done the research, run the NPCs, and quite probably prepared for the occurrence.

Personally I am full pay at an Ivy and a NESCAC. Yeah I'd love to have a beach house but that is not what I saved for during the last 20 years. And I feel good about it. My choice, you make yours.

Cool it Marie Antoinette.

Being judgmental about other people's lifestyle decisions or career decisions that are not "bad" decisions is petty and silly. As is dismissing other people's pointing out the flaws in the higher education economic model. The whole model is morally bankrupt if it demands this degree of financial sacrifice that could nearly bankrupt a family. It's effectively robbing the rich to pay the poor and telling the donut hole "middle" to suck it up without any sympathy.

Of course many in the donut middle are looking at other options and making things work, but trying to shame people for talking about the increasingly unsustainable world of higher education costs only makes you, well, Marie Antoinette.

Your reading comprehension is bad and you don't understand the history of the French revolution either.

My post says clearly: "My choice, you make yours." I respect any choice WRT what something is worth.

My post also answers a question (I assume) you asked about whether the opposing side had any experience.

Where do you see judgment? You are the one (unsuccessfully) throwing pejoratives.