Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone was curious about what disability accommodations look like specifically from Pomona: https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services

Test-Taking Accommodations
50% or 100% additional time on traditional tests
Quiet location for testing
Computer test reader
Dragon Naturally Speaking as a test writing resource
Use of computer to type essay exams
Assistive technology for exams or for course work
Spelling and punctuation considerations on exams
Classroom Accommodations
Notes or course notes
Permission to record the course lecture
Preferential seating
Course handouts in an enlarged font
Course handouts in an electronic format
Use of service animal in the classroom
Assistive technology in classroom

Mobility Accommodations
Relocating classrooms, lab, field trips and living spaces in accessible locations.
Pomona Medical Supply will provide carts and mobility devices.
Foreign Language Exemption
All exemptions are processed through the Academic Procedure Committee. Contact the Associate Dean of Students to assist with this process.

Emotional Support Animals
To obtain permission to have an emotional support animal on campus, review the pets in residence hall policy and have the medical professional complete the emotional support animal application form. Once that is completed, contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an emotional support animal on campus.

Housing Accommodations
Please contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an air conditioner or single room.

Here is the form students fill out: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-request-for-services.pdf and the one professionals do: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-documentation-form.pdf

I find it strange that the student form asks- "What accommodations do you need?" Shouldn't this be to the judgement of the professional solely? If the student form is the primary way accommodations are assigned, the potential for abuse is significant.

A further look at "tips for accommodations" gives far too much leverage, IMO, for students to create accommodations as they WANT rather than as they NEED (or as is reasonable). https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services/how-make-most-your-academic-accommodations

Pomona's Common Data Set states that 94% of entering students ranked in the top 10% of their high school class. Their profile states 27% of enrolled students ranked valedictorian. Pomona seems to bend over backwards to accommodate students that I could not imagine happening at any high school. Those students clearly thrived academically- most without needing accommodations in the first place. They're not suddenly going to come into college unable to handle the lifestyle or workload. The reality is that Pomona needs to take a long hard look on the ease which it allows accommodations and ensure that the students who genuinely need them are getting the bulk of the resources.

The free "market" will sort all this out by declining to hire Pomona grads, then smart students and their parents will revolt and demand standards. Smart students won't allow the devaluation of their hard won credential (the diploma) by the allowance of practices (e.g. excessive accommodation) that are not respected by prospective employers. The same problem afflicts POC who are the beneficiaries of affirmative action - people rationally question whether a POC doctor is capable or a beneficiary of "special accommodations". Of course there are many capable and even brilliant POC doctors (e.g. Ben Carson) but their achievement is called into question by the practices of affirmative action. Meet the standard, don't lower it.

Or they will do just fine. I don't think you're getting it. People who need accommodations in college often succeed very well in their careers and needing accommodations isn't reflective of intellect. In fact, those that have to work harder to do as well as their peers in school often do better when they're no longer being judged in such an artificial environment.

What you say was true in the past. But it does not grapple with the fact that it's facially ridiculous that a full 20% of kids in a well-to-to Chicago suburb are somehow so disabled as to need ACT accommodations.

Oh, so all of those kids went to Pomona?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are exactly right.

The other responders are in fact ignorant, and lucky that they have not had to learn the hard way that these disabilities are real (despite the fact that they are invisible).

Careful snarky posters, karma might be real...

I don't think people mind when the disabilities are real. They do mind that there is abuse of the system.

They don't mind when a blind person has a guide dog or someone with PTSD from service in Afghanistan has emotional support dog.

They do mind when someone spends $50 for a fake emotional support certificate to take their pet ferret (or camel) on the plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz8bqJaKeKk

or rich parents spending thousands for a fake diagnosis so that their kid gets extra time on the SATs https://www.thedailybeast.com/faking-adhd-gets-you-into-harvard

or college students fake ADHD to get Adderall. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mouse-man/201007/new-study-claims-it-is-easy-fake-adhd

As long as these things are allowed to occur, it undermines the case of people with real needs.

Except in this thread we have people telling those with disabled to go find their "niche" [that isn't in college]. We have lots of shaming language directed towards anyone who uses and accommodation, including calling them disgraceful. Your starting assumption is that you should be arbiter of what constitutes a "real" disability.

You want to focus on abuse of the system yet until very recently people with very disabilities were unable to get reasonable accommodations. Children with learning disabilities are still left unidentified and failed out of school. Children with identified learning disabilities are still not provided with scientifically backed learning methods and then called "lazy" or a "behavioral problem" when they still don't catch up when provided with more of the same methods that don't work. You only care about abuse of the system because it doesn't affect you at all that bright kids with a lot of potential are short changed. Personally, I'm delighted to know a pair of brothers with ADHD and dyslexia who are doing great in the engineering program at their chosen university. What's even more marvelous for me is out confident they are in themselves that they can talk about their challenges and how they overcome them without the shame people like you want to place on them.

Guess what. I have a child with a legitimate IEP, and I think that inflated disability claims do NOTHING to help him. It only makes people more skeptical of disability rights in general.

Guess what. Most of the posters here don't think your child's IEP is legitimate and that s/he doesn't belong in college.

I highly doubt that. And if my kid (who by all accounts actually has great working memory and processing speed) got extra time on the SAT and ACT and outscored their kid, I think they would be right to think that was wrong. My goal for my child is for him to learn to understand and compensate for his weaknesses, and play to his strengths. I do want him to get supports along the way, but not supports that give him an unfair advantage.

Here you go " your child ... should pick exercise science as a major instead of engineering"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone was curious about what disability accommodations look like specifically from Pomona: https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services

Test-Taking Accommodations
50% or 100% additional time on traditional tests
Quiet location for testing
Computer test reader
Dragon Naturally Speaking as a test writing resource
Use of computer to type essay exams
Assistive technology for exams or for course work
Spelling and punctuation considerations on exams
Classroom Accommodations
Notes or course notes
Permission to record the course lecture
Preferential seating
Course handouts in an enlarged font
Course handouts in an electronic format
Use of service animal in the classroom
Assistive technology in classroom

Mobility Accommodations
Relocating classrooms, lab, field trips and living spaces in accessible locations.
Pomona Medical Supply will provide carts and mobility devices.
Foreign Language Exemption
All exemptions are processed through the Academic Procedure Committee. Contact the Associate Dean of Students to assist with this process.

Emotional Support Animals
To obtain permission to have an emotional support animal on campus, review the pets in residence hall policy and have the medical professional complete the emotional support animal application form. Once that is completed, contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an emotional support animal on campus.

Housing Accommodations
Please contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an air conditioner or single room.

Here is the form students fill out: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-request-for-services.pdf and the one professionals do: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-documentation-form.pdf

I find it strange that the student form asks- "What accommodations do you need?" Shouldn't this be to the judgement of the professional solely? If the student form is the primary way accommodations are assigned, the potential for abuse is significant.

A further look at "tips for accommodations" gives far too much leverage, IMO, for students to create accommodations as they WANT rather than as they NEED (or as is reasonable). https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services/how-make-most-your-academic-accommodations

Pomona's Common Data Set states that 94% of entering students ranked in the top 10% of their high school class. Their profile states 27% of enrolled students ranked valedictorian. Pomona seems to bend over backwards to accommodate students that I could not imagine happening at any high school. Those students clearly thrived academically- most without needing accommodations in the first place. They're not suddenly going to come into college unable to handle the lifestyle or workload. The reality is that Pomona needs to take a long hard look on the ease which it allows accommodations and ensure that the students who genuinely need them are getting the bulk of the resources.

The free "market" will sort all this out by declining to hire Pomona grads, then smart students and their parents will revolt and demand standards. Smart students won't allow the devaluation of their hard won credential (the diploma) by the allowance of practices (e.g. excessive accommodation) that are not respected by prospective employers. The same problem afflicts POC who are the beneficiaries of affirmative action - people rationally question whether a POC doctor is capable or a beneficiary of "special accommodations". Of course there are many capable and even brilliant POC doctors (e.g. Ben Carson) but their achievement is called into question by the practices of affirmative action. Meet the standard, don't lower it.

Or they will do just fine. I don't think you're getting it. People who need accommodations in college often succeed very well in their careers and needing accommodations isn't reflective of intellect. In fact, those that have to work harder to do as well as their peers in school often do better when they're no longer being judged in such an artificial environment.

What you say was true in the past. But it does not grapple with the fact that it's facially ridiculous that a full 20% of kids in a well-to-to Chicago suburb are somehow so disabled as to need ACT accommodations.

Oh, so all of those kids went to Pomona?

I posted a link earlier from a 2012 article stating that 20% of the kids in one Chicago suburb got testing accommodations. Likely it's more now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are exactly right.

The other responders are in fact ignorant, and lucky that they have not had to learn the hard way that these disabilities are real (despite the fact that they are invisible).

Careful snarky posters, karma might be real...

I don't think people mind when the disabilities are real. They do mind that there is abuse of the system.

They don't mind when a blind person has a guide dog or someone with PTSD from service in Afghanistan has emotional support dog.

They do mind when someone spends $50 for a fake emotional support certificate to take their pet ferret (or camel) on the plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz8bqJaKeKk

or rich parents spending thousands for a fake diagnosis so that their kid gets extra time on the SATs https://www.thedailybeast.com/faking-adhd-gets-you-into-harvard

or college students fake ADHD to get Adderall. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mouse-man/201007/new-study-claims-it-is-easy-fake-adhd

As long as these things are allowed to occur, it undermines the case of people with real needs.

Except in this thread we have people telling those with disabled to go find their "niche" [that isn't in college]. We have lots of shaming language directed towards anyone who uses and accommodation, including calling them disgraceful. Your starting assumption is that you should be arbiter of what constitutes a "real" disability.

You want to focus on abuse of the system yet until very recently people with very disabilities were unable to get reasonable accommodations. Children with learning disabilities are still left unidentified and failed out of school. Children with identified learning disabilities are still not provided with scientifically backed learning methods and then called "lazy" or a "behavioral problem" when they still don't catch up when provided with more of the same methods that don't work. You only care about abuse of the system because it doesn't affect you at all that bright kids with a lot of potential are short changed. Personally, I'm delighted to know a pair of brothers with ADHD and dyslexia who are doing great in the engineering program at their chosen university. What's even more marvelous for me is out confident they are in themselves that they can talk about their challenges and how they overcome them without the shame people like you want to place on them.

Guess what. I have a child with a legitimate IEP, and I think that inflated disability claims do NOTHING to help him. It only makes people more skeptical of disability rights in general.

Guess what. Most of the posters here don't think your child's IEP is legitimate and that s/he doesn't belong in college.

I highly doubt that. And if my kid (who by all accounts actually has great working memory and processing speed) got extra time on the SAT and ACT and outscored their kid, I think they would be right to think that was wrong. My goal for my child is for him to learn to understand and compensate for his weaknesses, and play to his strengths. I do want him to get supports along the way, but not supports that give him an unfair advantage.

Here you go " your child ... should pick exercise science as a major instead of engineering"

If your child has a disability that means a certain major/career path is going to be very difficult ... then yeah, seems like a bad idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Truly - what is the harm of accommodations? What is one single example of an accommodated kid gaining an unfair advantage? I am asking this and my kids are accommodation free. These kids may not fit into the box they are dealt with but this has nothing to do with intellect, ideas or ability to innovate. Sure - perhaps there are some careers where they may not be properly suited but that’s between them and their employer.

Obviously, with more time they could out-perform their peers who have to stick to the time limit.

Agree SATs and ACTs are as much a test of getting through all the questions within the time limits as a test of skills/ability. If one kid has say 45 seconds to work out a math problem, it is harder to get it right than if they have 90-120 seconds per question. When there's a strict time limit, many kids don't have the luxury of double checking answers. I think a lot of test prep is to teach kids how to zero in on the right answer, dismissing clearly wrong answers, as quickly as possible. It must also be more comfortable writing the SAT essay when you've got double the time to think and plan.

You don't get it. It takes the ADHD/ADD/anxiety/EF disabled student longer to do the same work, so 45 seconds for a non-disabled student = 90-120 seconds for a disabled student. There is no advantage, only a levelled playing field. There is no extra double-checking of answers. It takes the disabled student the entire period to simply get through the test! There is no extra time to plan an essay response. It takes that long just to decide what to write and write it! Some of you need to study up on this type of disability rather than impulsively responding. -Mom of ADD DD who barely squeaked by HS -- even with so-called "extras."

I think YOU don't get it. Standardized tests are build to test processing speed and working memory, in part. They're not designed to test content knowledge and creativity. It would be laughably backwards to argue that a kid should get longer on tests because he is "disabled" due to his reduced executive functioning ability.

Now, a much better argument is that schools and colleges should design evaluations and courses that give more kinds of options to different kinds of learners. That, I agree with. But standardized tests measure processing speed, period.

You are ignorant person. Psychological tests measure processing speed, not ACT or SAT.
My child has slow processing speed and low working memory. But my child with support is finishing MS magnet and will go to HS magnet next year.
Should my child not go to college? There is no way my child will take SAT or ACT without extended time... No way of any college, even CC without accommodations.
However, you have to know what kind of solutions and approaches child uses when solving some problems. I periodically literally open my mouth. I can't do it that way even with several advanced degrees and no LD. He just thinks differently.
No any single person who works with my child ever question that he belong where he is .

No, the SAT and ACT literally measure processing speed and working memory, in part. That is why they are *timed.* Your child may have many strengths, but processing speed is not one of them. It would be much better that he focuses on a college and major that does not prioritize processing speed metrics, than that he circumvent timed tests. That would be a better fit for him.

If someone doesn't have a disability that requires extra time and they know the material, they have no problem finishing in under time. If someone knows the material but has a disability that makes it take longer to perform the mechanics of the test, limiting time does affect their ability to finish the test. This is why scores don't change very much when people without disabilities are given extra time but scores do change a lot when people with disabilities are given extra time. I don't know why you're stuck on processing speed being a key indicator on whether someone should go to college. There are many, many professions requiring advanced degrees where processing speed is completely irrelevant. Of course SAT scores are also largely irrelevant too. So maybe that is your point?

But the "mechanics of the test" are the whole point. Standardized tests measure your ability to take standardized tests, which includes how well you cope with the "mechanics" of the test. And if the outcomes are the same, lets let everyone have extra time. I know you don't want to hear this, but processing speed, working memory, and executive function ARE key components of intelligence, as generally understood. Your child may well have other kinds of intelligence and personal qualities that are important, perhaps even more important. But standardized tests have a purpose, and I'd rather see us just get rid of them than make them nonsensical.

You seriously think there is value in judging someone's ability to complete college by how well they're able to fill in the correct bubble in a bubble chart?

I'm not debating that processing speed and working memory are part of intelligence, but so are things like fluid reasoning. If a child has 130 in fluid reasoning and 100 in processing speed, they should not have their fluid reasoning abilities disregarded. If a child has a perfectly fine IQ across all subtests but has dysgraphia, they shouldn't be penalized because it takes them twice as long to complete hand written work legibly. Same thing for a dyslexic student trying to fill in the correct bubbles for the answers they've already completed.

Test material is composed so that someone who knows it can complete it in the allotted time. It isn't composed so that someone can spend significant time doing other things besides actually taking the test and still complete it. If you lengthen the time for everyone, then you also lengthen the material, and then you have the same issue. Someone requires 20% more time to use text magnification or 20% longer in order to write legibly, so they really only get 80% of the time everyone else gets to actually take the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone was curious about what disability accommodations look like specifically from Pomona: https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services

Test-Taking Accommodations
50% or 100% additional time on traditional tests
Quiet location for testing
Computer test reader
Dragon Naturally Speaking as a test writing resource
Use of computer to type essay exams
Assistive technology for exams or for course work
Spelling and punctuation considerations on exams
Classroom Accommodations
Notes or course notes
Permission to record the course lecture
Preferential seating
Course handouts in an enlarged font
Course handouts in an electronic format
Use of service animal in the classroom
Assistive technology in classroom

Mobility Accommodations
Relocating classrooms, lab, field trips and living spaces in accessible locations.
Pomona Medical Supply will provide carts and mobility devices.
Foreign Language Exemption
All exemptions are processed through the Academic Procedure Committee. Contact the Associate Dean of Students to assist with this process.

Emotional Support Animals
To obtain permission to have an emotional support animal on campus, review the pets in residence hall policy and have the medical professional complete the emotional support animal application form. Once that is completed, contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an emotional support animal on campus.

Housing Accommodations
Please contact the Dean of Students Office to secure permission to have an air conditioner or single room.

Here is the form students fill out: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-request-for-services.pdf and the one professionals do: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/disability-documentation-form.pdf

I find it strange that the student form asks- "What accommodations do you need?" Shouldn't this be to the judgement of the professional solely? If the student form is the primary way accommodations are assigned, the potential for abuse is significant.

A further look at "tips for accommodations" gives far too much leverage, IMO, for students to create accommodations as they WANT rather than as they NEED (or as is reasonable). https://www.pomona.edu/accessibility/student-accessibility/accommodation-services/how-make-most-your-academic-accommodations

Pomona's Common Data Set states that 94% of entering students ranked in the top 10% of their high school class. Their profile states 27% of enrolled students ranked valedictorian. Pomona seems to bend over backwards to accommodate students that I could not imagine happening at any high school. Those students clearly thrived academically- most without needing accommodations in the first place. They're not suddenly going to come into college unable to handle the lifestyle or workload. The reality is that Pomona needs to take a long hard look on the ease which it allows accommodations and ensure that the students who genuinely need them are getting the bulk of the resources.

The free "market" will sort all this out by declining to hire Pomona grads, then smart students and their parents will revolt and demand standards. Smart students won't allow the devaluation of their hard won credential (the diploma) by the allowance of practices (e.g. excessive accommodation) that are not respected by prospective employers. The same problem afflicts POC who are the beneficiaries of affirmative action - people rationally question whether a POC doctor is capable or a beneficiary of "special accommodations". Of course there are many capable and even brilliant POC doctors (e.g. Ben Carson) but their achievement is called into question by the practices of affirmative action. Meet the standard, don't lower it.

Or they will do just fine. I don't think you're getting it. People who need accommodations in college often succeed very well in their careers and needing accommodations isn't reflective of intellect. In fact, those that have to work harder to do as well as their peers in school often do better when they're no longer being judged in such an artificial environment.

What you say was true in the past. But it does not grapple with the fact that it's facially ridiculous that a full 20% of kids in a well-to-to Chicago suburb are somehow so disabled as to need ACT accommodations.

Oh, so all of those kids went to Pomona?

I posted a link earlier from a 2012 article stating that 20% of the kids in one Chicago suburb got testing accommodations. Likely it's more now.

I know. And you responded to a thread that said Pomona students would start failing out of their careers because 22% have disabilities or academic accommodations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are exactly right.

The other responders are in fact ignorant, and lucky that they have not had to learn the hard way that these disabilities are real (despite the fact that they are invisible).

Careful snarky posters, karma might be real...

I don't think people mind when the disabilities are real. They do mind that there is abuse of the system.

They don't mind when a blind person has a guide dog or someone with PTSD from service in Afghanistan has emotional support dog.

They do mind when someone spends $50 for a fake emotional support certificate to take their pet ferret (or camel) on the plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz8bqJaKeKk

or rich parents spending thousands for a fake diagnosis so that their kid gets extra time on the SATs https://www.thedailybeast.com/faking-adhd-gets-you-into-harvard

or college students fake ADHD to get Adderall. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mouse-man/201007/new-study-claims-it-is-easy-fake-adhd

As long as these things are allowed to occur, it undermines the case of people with real needs.

Except in this thread we have people telling those with disabled to go find their "niche" [that isn't in college]. We have lots of shaming language directed towards anyone who uses and accommodation, including calling them disgraceful. Your starting assumption is that you should be arbiter of what constitutes a "real" disability.

You want to focus on abuse of the system yet until very recently people with very disabilities were unable to get reasonable accommodations. Children with learning disabilities are still left unidentified and failed out of school. Children with identified learning disabilities are still not provided with scientifically backed learning methods and then called "lazy" or a "behavioral problem" when they still don't catch up when provided with more of the same methods that don't work. You only care about abuse of the system because it doesn't affect you at all that bright kids with a lot of potential are short changed. Personally, I'm delighted to know a pair of brothers with ADHD and dyslexia who are doing great in the engineering program at their chosen university. What's even more marvelous for me is out confident they are in themselves that they can talk about their challenges and how they overcome them without the shame people like you want to place on them.

Guess what. I have a child with a legitimate IEP, and I think that inflated disability claims do NOTHING to help him. It only makes people more skeptical of disability rights in general.

Guess what. Most of the posters here don't think your child's IEP is legitimate and that s/he doesn't belong in college.

I highly doubt that. And if my kid (who by all accounts actually has great working memory and processing speed) got extra time on the SAT and ACT and outscored their kid, I think they would be right to think that was wrong. My goal for my child is for him to learn to understand and compensate for his weaknesses, and play to his strengths. I do want him to get supports along the way, but not supports that give him an unfair advantage.

Here you go " your child ... should pick exercise science as a major instead of engineering"

If your child has a disability that means a certain major/career path is going to be very difficult ... then yeah, seems like a bad idea.

Then say that. I think everyone agrees that people should play to their strengths. That's a little different than saying anyone with slower processing speed should pick PE instead of Engineering. That's pretty patently false. Engineering actually plays to the strengths of many kids with ADHD and/or dyslexia.

[Anonymous]

"I highly doubt that. And if my kid (who by all accounts actually has great working memory and processing speed) got extra time on the SAT and ACT and outscored their kid, I think they would be right to think that was wrong. My goal for my child is for him to learn to understand and compensate for his weaknesses, and play to his strengths. I do want him to get supports along the way, but not supports that give him an unfair advantage."

This took us a long time to understand as well. Try thinking of it this way. At some point, getting more extra time (or whatever the support might be) stops being an advantage.

For example, if all students could stare at the test and work as hard as they want to for as long as they want until their scores just won't go up any more, this would be fair, right?

This is what the testing showed for our DC with an IEP. DC didn't need extra time because his score did not go up with extra time. However, if he gets headphones where he can hear the questions as well as see them, his score go up so he gets that support.

We know another student whose test score goes up almost no matter how much extra time they receive. The have fairly severe ADHD. Pretty much they can only do one question and then they need a break. In school, this showed up because they always got 100% on any quiz they ever took but pretty much failed every test they ever took. If they get modified tests that only ask them the hardest two or three questions, once again they always get 100%. If you switch it around and give them the first and easier 80% of the test, once again they pretty much fail all the time. They get the first 3 or so question right and the rest of the questions wrong.

This student with ADHD, can do problems much harder than their peers, they just can't do many of them. As an employer, I can get anyone to do the easy questions but I have to pay big money to get someone to answer the hard questions.

This is what supports are all about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Truly - what is the harm of accommodations? What is one single example of an accommodated kid gaining an unfair advantage? I am asking this and my kids are accommodation free. These kids may not fit into the box they are dealt with but this has nothing to do with intellect, ideas or ability to innovate. Sure - perhaps there are some careers where they may not be properly suited but that’s between them and their employer.

Obviously, with more time they could out-perform their peers who have to stick to the time limit.

Agree SATs and ACTs are as much a test of getting through all the questions within the time limits as a test of skills/ability. If one kid has say 45 seconds to work out a math problem, it is harder to get it right than if they have 90-120 seconds per question. When there's a strict time limit, many kids don't have the luxury of double checking answers. I think a lot of test prep is to teach kids how to zero in on the right answer, dismissing clearly wrong answers, as quickly as possible. It must also be more comfortable writing the SAT essay when you've got double the time to think and plan.

You don't get it. It takes the ADHD/ADD/anxiety/EF disabled student longer to do the same work, so 45 seconds for a non-disabled student = 90-120 seconds for a disabled student. There is no advantage, only a levelled playing field. There is no extra double-checking of answers. It takes the disabled student the entire period to simply get through the test! There is no extra time to plan an essay response. It takes that long just to decide what to write and write it! Some of you need to study up on this type of disability rather than impulsively responding. -Mom of ADD DD who barely squeaked by HS -- even with so-called "extras."

I think YOU don't get it. Standardized tests are build to test processing speed and working memory, in part. They're not designed to test content knowledge and creativity. It would be laughably backwards to argue that a kid should get longer on tests because he is "disabled" due to his reduced executive functioning ability.

Now, a much better argument is that schools and colleges should design evaluations and courses that give more kinds of options to different kinds of learners. That, I agree with. But standardized tests measure processing speed, period.

You are ignorant person. Psychological tests measure processing speed, not ACT or SAT.
My child has slow processing speed and low working memory. But my child with support is finishing MS magnet and will go to HS magnet next year.
Should my child not go to college? There is no way my child will take SAT or ACT without extended time... No way of any college, even CC without accommodations.
However, you have to know what kind of solutions and approaches child uses when solving some problems. I periodically literally open my mouth. I can't do it that way even with several advanced degrees and no LD. He just thinks differently.
No any single person who works with my child ever question that he belong where he is .

No, the SAT and ACT literally measure processing speed and working memory, in part. That is why they are *timed.* Your child may have many strengths, but processing speed is not one of them. It would be much better that he focuses on a college and major that does not prioritize processing speed metrics, than that he circumvent timed tests. That would be a better fit for him.

If someone doesn't have a disability that requires extra time and they know the material, they have no problem finishing in under time. If someone knows the material but has a disability that makes it take longer to perform the mechanics of the test, limiting time does affect their ability to finish the test. This is why scores don't change very much when people without disabilities are given extra time but scores do change a lot when people with disabilities are given extra time. I don't know why you're stuck on processing speed being a key indicator on whether someone should go to college. There are many, many professions requiring advanced degrees where processing speed is completely irrelevant. Of course SAT scores are also largely irrelevant too. So maybe that is your point?

But the "mechanics of the test" are the whole point. Standardized tests measure your ability to take standardized tests, which includes how well you cope with the "mechanics" of the test. And if the outcomes are the same, lets let everyone have extra time. I know you don't want to hear this, but processing speed, working memory, and executive function ARE key components of intelligence, as generally understood. Your child may well have other kinds of intelligence and personal qualities that are important, perhaps even more important. But standardized tests have a purpose, and I'd rather see us just get rid of them than make them nonsensical.

You seriously think there is value in judging someone's ability to complete college by how well they're able to fill in the correct bubble in a bubble chart?

I'm not debating that processing speed and working memory are part of intelligence, but so are things like fluid reasoning. If a child has 130 in fluid reasoning and 100 in processing speed, they should not have their fluid reasoning abilities disregarded. If a child has a perfectly fine IQ across all subtests but has dysgraphia, they shouldn't be penalized because it takes them twice as long to complete hand written work legibly. Same thing for a dyslexic student trying to fill in the correct bubbles for the answers they've already completed.

Test material is composed so that someone who knows it can complete it in the allotted time. It isn't composed so that someone can spend significant time doing other things besides actually taking the test and still complete it. If you lengthen the time for everyone, then you also lengthen the material, and then you have the same issue. Someone requires 20% more time to use text magnification or 20% longer in order to write legibly, so they really only get 80% of the time everyone else gets to actually take the test.

The test is designed how it's designed -- what you're arguing for is that all college admissions should be based on whatever $5k neuropsych exam your kid got from Mindwell. I think longer testing times are OK for someone who legitmately has to use an assistive device or has fine motor issues. But just to make up for the fact that their processing speed is relatively slower? No way. The POINT of the test is in part to measure processing speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I highly doubt that. And if my kid (who by all accounts actually has great working memory and processing speed) got extra time on the SAT and ACT and outscored their kid, I think they would be right to think that was wrong. My goal for my child is for him to learn to understand and compensate for his weaknesses, and play to his strengths. I do want him to get supports along the way, but not supports that give him an unfair advantage."

This took us a long time to understand as well. Try thinking of it this way. At some point, getting more extra time (or whatever the support might be) stops being an advantage.

For example, if all students could stare at the test and work as hard as they want to for as long as they want until their scores just won't go up any more, this would be fair, right?

This is what the testing showed for our DC with an IEP. DC didn't need extra time because his score did not go up with extra time. However, if he gets headphones where he can hear the questions as well as see them, his score go up so he gets that support.

We know another student whose test score goes up almost no matter how much extra time they receive. The have fairly severe ADHD. Pretty much they can only do one question and then they need a break. In school, this showed up because they always got 100% on any quiz they ever took but pretty much failed every test they ever took. If they get modified tests that only ask them the hardest two or three questions, once again they always get 100%. If you switch it around and give them the first and easier 80% of the test, once again they pretty much fail all the time. They get the first 3 or so question right and the rest of the questions wrong.

This student with ADHD, can do problems much harder than their peers, they just can't do many of them. As an employer, I can get anyone to do the easy questions but I have to pay big money to get someone to answer the hard questions.

This is what supports are all about.

I REALLY disagree. That's catering to a child with ADHD, not helping them learn to be successful in the workplace. Barring jobs where pure, isolated genius compensates for everything else, nobody can escape some drudgery. If the only goal there is to assess the child's knowledge of the content -- find, then just giving them the 3 hardest question works. But that's FAR from setting them up to be a functional person.

[Anonymous]

A study was done to see how students with and without disabilities do on the SAT with extra time. Extra time did NOT help all test takers whether disabled or not. It did help increase score for the highest scoring test takers. So for those students scoring in the 90th percentile rank, extra time absolutely can help boost their score. No one is begrudging extra time to a kid with cerebral palsy or a vision impairment with any score or a kid with a learning disability who scores in the 50th percentile rank. People are upset that some kids who are scoring 1350 of better (90th percentile rank) without the benefit of extra time are gaming the system to get accommodations like extra time to boost that 90th percentile into a 98th or 99th percentile score.

Wealthy families can afford to pay thousands to get their child tested. My cousin had her child tested right after he broke his arm and had a cast on his writing hand for 6 weeks. Surprise, surprise his processing speed was low. His ACT score went from 28 to 32 with extra time and private tutoring. An ACT score is the 89th percentile rank. If you can score better than 89% of high school students how disabled are you? Why should you get extra time? His percentile rank went up the the 97th percentile rank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Considering that the benchmark rate of disabilities disgnosed in DC is supposed to be around 8.5%, 25% seems way too high!

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a2af8a0f14aa1cbbcf14079/t/5a733acf652dea8a7edb13f5/1517501136295/Corrected+Memorandum+Opinion+%26++Findings+of+Fact+and+Conclusions+of+Law%2C+dated+June+21%2C+2016.pdf

Your missing an important point. I have a HS kid with ADHD accommodations— at TJ, of all places—- based on extensive psychoeducational testing. His PS vs GAI IQ is very lopsided, and he needs the extended time for math and some science testingto compensate for the PS. Sorry if you don’t like it, but it is very legit. And we don’t need your permission to work with TJ to help our kid get the academic supports he needs o succeed.

At any rate, DS is currently looking at small LACs like Pomona and Oberlin for college. UVA, VT and UMD CP are not even being considered precisely because of his ADHD. He has a much higher chance of succeeding in small classes when he is not overwhelmed and that value participation, so he stays engaged, than in a class of 200 kids. He also needs a school where professors will notice if he gets in academic trouble, and where he can continue to work with an EF coach, is necessary. A big jump in ADHD kids at SLACs tells me that we are not the only family putting a lot of thought into the best type of academic environment for our kid in college. And SLACs have a lot of pluses for 2e kids.

I would bet a lot that the numbers look very different at large state universities, and that 25% of kids at UVA do not use disability services. And that of the percentages of kids with diagnoses at SLACs are high— but the absolute number is small. A lot of these schools now have 400-500 kids per class, rather than thousands of kids. .

You don’t know my kid OP. You are in no position to judge him. Kindly butt out and keep your incredibly uniformed opinions to yourself.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps tests simply need to be redesigned so that having more time to take them doesn't provide anyone with an advantage.

I certainly had exams in law school which allowed a ridiculous amount of time to complete (6 hours) and take-home exams (24 hours). There wasn't really an advantage/disadvantage to having more time. If you don't need all the time, you turn it in early.

[Anonymous]

PS- I bet it kills you OP to know that my kid had a 216 selection index on his sophomore PSAT, taken in a small group setting with extended time. That would have qualified him as National Merit Commended Scholar. If he improves by about 3 questions this year, with accommodations, he will be a NMSF.

And you can suck it up. This kid is brilliant, and works harder than his very hard working peers for the same or lower grades.

[Anonymous]

"I REALLY disagree. That's catering to a child with ADHD, not helping them learn to be successful in the workplace. Barring jobs where pure, isolated genius compensates for everything else, nobody can escape some drudgery. If the only goal there is to assess the child's knowledge of the content -- find, then just giving them the 3 hardest question works. But that's FAR from setting them up to be a functional person."

Do you understand how much drudgery that ADHD student has to go through to learn all the material and answer the three hard questions compared to a student without ADHD?

They aren't a genius, they have to learn the material. The student without ADHD can focus for an hour or two and do the home work or study for the test. It takes the ADHD student much longer.

They are an expert at drudgery because everything they do has to be done through drudgery. They can't do anything any other way.

You don't need a job that relies on genius, you just need a job that isn't under some type of time crunch all the time and to put in the time required for you to get the job done like any salaried employee would.