Norwood for student working several grade-leves ahead?

[Anonymous]

I agree with SAM2, that redefining the discussion to focus on PG kids (160+) has moved this discussion way off its original base. PG kids are, what, 0.1% of the population, even less. It's an interesting question, but it's not what OP asked about, and it's probably not relevant to many of the families looking here for answers.

Yes, talking about PG as opposed to HG is essential for one poster to make her point. As is talking about that one 6-year-old she probably read about at Hoagies. But really we're talking about extreme outliers here.

Also, I smell the troll in several of the recent posts, certainly 20:49.

To 20:21, you are so wrong about many of us on this thread today: we are not "desperate" for a top 3 by any means and in fact our family TURNED DOWN a top 3 in favor of a magnet. The rest of your post is babble. You take a condescending, sneering, tone; you claim our kids are less exceptional than yours and that's why we don't understand; you post utter nonsense about our motives like attending top 3s; and then you act like a martyr when people attack you? I'd say you're the troll too, except you're a lot more coherent in your nastiness. Ugghhh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good luck reaching them. I agree with you; however, most posters on this forum are desparately shooting for admission to private schools ("big 3" variety in this neck of the woods) and admission into Ivy and other selective colleges. A cursory review of the bulk and volume of the threads confirm these things matter to this community. Joining an area D.C. network crowd of movers and shakers where sailing, rowing, lacrosse are important activities. It's not unlike what happens in Manhattan and Brooklyn Heights.

This crowd will have no experience with the types of children you descibe ... most of whom are not driven by Ivy, WPSSI, SAT scores -- bars they have scaled well before the high school years for most of these folk to allow them to chart their separate supplementary courses in the local universities.

And there are a number of hoverers, comfortable with generational wealth and resources, content to chortle, chuckle and yawn, surveying the scramble.

There are those who get it. Don't worry.

What is this cr@p, especially, but not limited to, the bolded part? I wish Jeff would kick these trolls off DCUM.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:SAM2, the OP said that her child is functioning "several grade levels" beyond her peers. This could mean three years or ten years. Generally speaking, "several" is not the term used to signify 1, 2 or even 3. Kids functioning two years ahead of their peers should certainly not have in problems adapting to local schools, public or private. Kids functioning 10 years ahead of their peers are another story. There's a world of difference ....

I'm not sure I understand you. It sounds like we're saying the same thing -- that the experience of a child working 2 grades above standard is far different from, and not comparable to, the experience of a child working 10 grades above standard. Is that your point?

As for OP, I wasn't referring to her post when I used as an example a MontCo HCG child operating 2 grades above standard. I was actually referring to a couple HCG parents who I was trading posts with a few pages ago. I believe I remember correctly that they indicated the HCG children generally are working approximately 2 grades above standard. At any rate, I hope that if OP's K child is one of those 6-year-olds that are approaching college-level work, she's not relying on DCUM for advice. (At the very least, she should have the common courtesy to take it to the college forum and not the private schools forum!)

While I'm posting, can we review the bidding on this thread generally? I'm quite lost what anyone's actually debating among all the different posters here. It seems like several people are making snide comments, but not making clear where they agree/disagree with one another. My own puny brain is far too slow to keep up. I've got a fundamental disagreement with the reasoning of one particular poster, but that disagreement is clearly a tiny portion of this larger disjointed exchange.

[Anonymous]

I thought it was funny because I've taught college and, no matter how bright, a 6 year old is not "ready" for college. It's a real waste of college for a profoundly gifted kid to end up at a school where he can get straight A's without studying. College can and should challenge even the brightest people on so many levels and, if it doesn't, one of the most intellectually stimulating experiences a person can have has been lost. Success in a prestigious grad school doesn't eliminate that loss -- it just means that a child narrowed his field of vision at an age where he wasn't sufficiently experienced to explore alternatives.

If your goal is to help a profoundly gifted kid realize his/her intellectual potential, this strikes me as a really screwed up way of going about it.

Point is well made. College was much more than courses and studying. Most of my colleges courses did not approach the challenge I received in high school.

No 10 year-old would survive a social scene of fraternities, dating, kegs and drugs in the air. Furthermore, many of the extracurricular activities debating, golf, rugby and the like and the general bull sessions may not accommodate a 10-year-old. There aren't many places for a 10-year-old with 800 SAT-Math to take Multivariable Calculus and computer programming. Many local fancy private schools would never allow the child in a Calculus class with someone in the 9th, 10th or higher grades. The kid does not want to sail but to take Calculus and AP Physics (the child needs the Calculus for Physics which he loves).

The kid decides not to enroll in the Big 3. Thus, the kid goes for online options (course ware at MIT or Yale or even AOPS) or a local university or community college allows him to take their Math and Science offerings based on SAT, AP scores and assessment. He is happy only for the moment. He is doing what he wants and the CC in the urban area with working students doesn't carry the social baggage of a 4-year residential college. Acing the courses, what does he do next? He decides to stay in the CC track and take the next higher courses? The child did attend public school in the interim to develop a transcript and portfolio for later college applications. When he is 15 or 16 and now considered ready for college the kid finds out the college will only take him as a transfer student because he has accumulated to many CC credits in community college. He is also ineligible for college scholarships for entering freshman (now he is the big student at age 15 or 16). He may also be ineligible for National Merit scholarships (he had a near perfect score on a PSAT exam he took 4 years ago for one of the Talent searches to take one of their summer courses). He passed up many national academic awards that required a designated Grade level for entry for lack of one. Family is working class and anticipated some merit college scholarships for her children but find they have slipped through the regulatory cracks due to lack of a clear academic pathway and duped by an educational system due to his precocity.

I do see this point of view.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that post -- it was very reassuring.

FWIW, I was that working class kid and experienced college courses at 12, 14, and 16 but stayed in public secondary schools at the same time -- which enabled me to enroll in Harvard at 17 as a freshman.

Having seen what I could do (and where I could do it) in college at those different ages, I know for certain that I would have had a much poorer education (albeit with an equally impressive -- maybe more impressive GPA!) had my parents let me bail on middle school and/or high school and go directly to college.

Interestingly, I never had a problem in elementary school (beyond the first week) because I lived in a small town and was pretty much allowed to do my own thing in school (which meant reading Shakespeare, Montessori, and BF Skinner and whatever other books from my parents' college classes interested me.) Basically, I pitched my teachers on whatever projects I wanted to do and they generally agreed to let me do them or proposed alternatives that were equally appealing.

My DC is growing up in a different time/place/class, and, as it turned out, after some trial and error, that the most analogous educational environment I could find to my public school in a small, poor town has been an "elite" urban private school. The commonality has been small scale and a faculty committed to progressive education.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure I understand you. It sounds like we're saying the same thing -- that the experience of a child working 2 grades above standard is far different from, and not comparable to, the experience of a child working 10 grades above standard. Is that your point?

As for OP, I wasn't referring to her post when I used as an example a MontCo HCG child operating 2 grades above standard. I was actually referring to a couple HCG parents who I was trading posts with a few pages ago. I believe I remember correctly that they indicated the HCG children generally are working approximately 2 grades above standard. At any rate, I hope that if OP's K child is one of those 6-year-olds that are approaching college-level work, she's not relying on DCUM for advice. (At the very least, she should have the common courtesy to take it to the college forum and not the private schools forum!)

While I'm posting, can we review the bidding? I'm also quite lost what anyone's actually debating among all the different posters here. It seems like several people are making snide comments, but not making clear where they disagree with one another. My own puny brain is far too slow to keep up. I've got a fundamental disagreement with the reasoning of one particular poster, but that disagreement is clearly a tiny portion of this disjointed exchange.

We did have a pleasant exchange awhile back and while I do not agree with all you say (I'm sure the feeling is mutual) you stay on topic and provide food for thought and fruitfull discussion. Don't worry, I have managed to wade through the noise. I assure you there are no children in our HGC, to my knowedge, trying to get to College at 6, 8, or 13. I'm not sure where that diversion came into our dialogue. But most of these kids are working at 2 or higher Grade levels. Many ultimately feed into the middle school magnet at Takoma Park and then Blair Magnet (Science, Computer Science and Math). For kids like those discussed this track seems to provide a pathway for some of the kids described that are well prepared and interested in higher maths and science before high school. Computer Science is introduce yearly at the start of middle school. As parents, I have no interest in my 9-year-old joining the adolescents and young adults I attended a residential college in NE with. I had a great time; I'm afraid the play and party may derail him. The child can go to College when he has gained the maturity to make good choices and decisions in that setting. Age, on the other hand, is not a prerequisite for tackling college intellectual material before the typical college age of 16 and 17. I have known far too many people in my lifetime who have done so with much success.

I have no comment in regards the din.

[Anonymous]

Oh and FWIW, Harvard and Princeton (as well as a number of other schools -- I just know more about these two) have switched to a system where working class kids who are admitted don't have to pay tuition. So money will become less of an issue, but I think that the issue of not accumulating too many college credits remains.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that post -- it was very reassuring.

FWIW, I was that working class kid and experienced college courses at 12, 14, and 16 but stayed in public secondary schools at the same time -- which enabled me to enroll in Harvard at 17 as a freshman.

Having seen what I could do (and where I could do it) in college at those different ages, I know for certain that I would have had a much poorer education (albeit with an equally impressive -- maybe more impressive GPA!) had my parents let me bail on middle school and/or high school and go directly to college.

Interestingly, I never had a problem in elementary school (beyond the first week) because I lived in a small town and was pretty much allowed to do my own thing in school (which meant reading Shakespeare, Montessori, and BF Skinner and whatever other books from my parents' college classes interested me.) Basically, I pitched my teachers on whatever projects I wanted to do and they generally agreed to let me do them or proposed alternatives that were equally appealing.

My DC is growing up in a different time/place/class, and, as it turned out, after some trial and error, that the most analogous educational environment I could find to my public school in a small, poor town has been an "elite" urban private school. The commonality has been small scale and a faculty committed to progressive education.

Don't worry about the noise and din. It's typical for the DCUMMIE crowd. I'm sure you're not taking these matters personally. Always remember the source.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:

As for OP, I wasn't referring to her post when I used as an example a MontCo HCG child operating 2 grades above standard. I was actually referring to a couple HCG parents who I was trading posts with a few pages ago ....

We did have a pleasant exchange awhile back ...

Oh good. I was hoping you'd stuck around. I enjoyed our exchange. I recall having a few more questions I want to ask about your child's experiences, but I cannot remember what they are right now. I'm signing off for the night, but please check back tomorrow evening if you're willing to talk further -- I'll review our earlier exchange and post a few more questions.

As an aside, in noodling around on some of the things you posted, I came across Kumar Singam and his research/postings. He does an excellent job at gathering and packaging info on the MontCo gifted program. I'd recommend his materials to anyone interested in this stuff, especially on a local level.

[Anonymous]

10:53
How can you possibly claim to know what every 6 year old in the world is or isn't ready for? How can you know that the child's interests are narrow? They aren't. He uses his free time to pursue all kinds of interests, and he has racked up achievements in quite divergent fields. You simply haven't met an extreme kid and aren't familiar with the literature about them.

Where do you suggest a child who is getting straight As in a top university go for a more stimulating experience? Please do tell. Oh, yeah, St Albans. Stupid me.

You obviously have never met a truly pg kid, and you aren't familiar with the literature about them either.
Yet despite your complete ignorance of the subject, you make grand statements about what's possible and what's not possible.

Perhaps you'd like to educate us about particle physics as well, or some other topic you once read an article about in Scientific American.

[Anonymous]

Thanks SAM2. I do not know the former Professor personally but I am well aware of his musings and writings in our local area.

Good night.

[Anonymous]

21:37 your post is particularly sneering and condescending.

[Anonymous]

22:14 Kids who go to college at a young age typically live with their parents. They don't join frats or go to toga parties, although they may have more in common with emotionally and socially with their classmates than agemates and like hanging out with them.

Th PSAT and credit issue are important considerations, and I'm glad you raised them. There are ways of getting around these problems, though. If your only choice is a strong private high school or CC, then yes, the strong private high school might offer more challenge. The brightest kids don't go the CC route, though, unless their families live in isolated areas.

I sympathize with the parents who want to focus on hg kids who are a year or two ahead academically. Did the OP ever state that this described her child, though? She said SEVERAL years ahead, not two, in her original post.

[Anonymous]

http://www.heroesgifted.org/sites/default/files/Child_Prodigies_Find_Challenging_Yet_Welcoming_Environmnet_at_Rutgers.pdf

This interesting relatively recent article is an example of options (to a "Big 3 school" or supplemental enrichment to a local public school) some of these kids charge towards. Most kids have pursued these loose arrangements and afiliations for enrichment and acceleration by dint of "walking the street" investigation and negotiation with universities.

Try to see beyond the potential PR bent of the article to children told at their local "Big 3" private school there is no option here to study AP Physics, Computer Programming or higher maths in middle school. I do not know whether this University is like one of your Ivies or whether college students attending are as brilliant as "Big 3" students but some students will opt for Math and Science classes here rather than another year of arithmetic and earth science in a school charging parents $32,000 per year (take it or leave it). Some choose to leave it.

Now if the child wants to go to a "big name school" with "brilliant students in NE" at 14 or 15 he or she could not live with his working class parents living in New Jersey or D.C.. She or he would have to move to a residential college type setting in NE to make this work. Alas, many of these students and families settle for the local fare (take it or leave it) for obvious reasons. The child may not cope independently in that environment.

Going the CC route for these bright kids is not the preferred route (per se); it's for some of them the only local educational option besides 2 more years of arithematic at the local "Big 3" private school with all the brilliant students at $32, 000 per year. Some local areas do not support public school magnet programs and one is beholden to the graces of local school principals, county rules, regulations and politics regarding placing a child appropriately into a challenging class he or she is ready for even if at a much higher grade level. The CC route is not the end game but a stop gap solution while the kids mature in other areas of their development prior to heading off to university and graduate schools. Some of these kids will self teach some AP courses and present sterling results on the May AP exams (there is no requirement to take an AP or homors course before sitting for these exams. Go to the local high school and pay to play) and SAT exams to support their requests for appropriate placement -- particularly when they may have no elementary school transcript and placement in classes based ages of their peers may neither be appropriate nor a sufficient challenge.

These kids are outliers (like those on the other side of the Bell shaped curve) but that status should not imply their needs should be ignored though these kids are savvy enough to knitted an educational quilt tailored to their unique talents. The Big 3 status quo and Big 3 symbol may not be the path for some of them.

[Anonymous]

Is it naive to hope we can end on that note. No one ever argued that the "big 3" was the only right path for a HG or PG kids. The argument has been whether acceleration in public gifted programs or homeschooling are the only way to challenge such students. And the testimony from some parents here is that some local privates are meeting their kids' needs. ("Big 3" was never a category -- Norwood was mentioned, progressive education was mentioned).

Basically, the debate has been between whether the ideal is to isolate and accelerate gifted kids vs. create a context in which kids are encouraged to go as deep and wide as their talents and drive take them. And part of the answer is depends on the kid, depends on the options available, depends on what the family wants from education.

There's also been a leitmotif which suggests that school isn't the only (or even necessarily the best) place to learn for some kids and that, at the extremes, special arrangements may be the way to go.