Middle class families - Are you willing to take on a ton of debt for a top college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OMG, BigLaw list posting PP - I love you!

Biglaw does not care at all where you went to undergrad. It's all about the law school you attended and how well you did. If your child has biglaw aspirations, save your money and pick uva.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People make the best decisions they can, so I would never begrudge a family that decided they couldn't afford the difference.

But, Columbia has very generous financial aid and it is less expensive than public colleges, including UVA, for almost everyone who is not in the top 20% of incomes. Columbia also has a no loan policy in their financial aid packages. Nor does it include retirement plan assets in calculating expected financial contributions.

So many of these posts are deeply misunderstand how much financial aid is available at Columbia and similar institutions. It would be a shame if others did not consider Columbia because of misinformation.

A "DCUM lower middle class family" earning $150,000/year with $150,000 in home equity and $20,000 in cash/marketable securities would have to contribute about $34,000 at Columbia. That's a relatively small difference from UVA's $30,500 cost of attendance.

Is that $34K per year? That's still insane to any non-rich person from outside of the northeast bubble. This is the only place on earth where people think it's normal for non-millionaires to spend six figures on each child's college education.

This is misleading. If you are admitted to Columbia, a more selective school than UVA, you will almost certainly qualify for serious merit aid from UVA. And you have to factor in the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition. And some states have MUCH more affordable schools. I know they are not in the same league as Columbia, or even UVA, but those are flagship state schools whose full freight tuition is 1/10th the cost of most privates.

[Anonymous]

Your undergrad is usually more reflective of your socioeconomic upbringing than your master's. Judging someone, who has a master's degree, on where they went to undergrad is pure classism.

[Anonymous]

My DD was accepted to both Columbia and UVA as an ECHOLS Scholar earlier this year. UVA was dropped like a hot potato when she was accepted at 3 of the 4 HYPS she applied to. Columbia on the other hand stayed in consideration until late April. We are full pay but I would have had my kid chasing merit at schools like Vanderbilt and Emory if I was OP's friend.

[Anonymous]

Depends what she wants to do. Undergraduate school doesn't really matter for a lot of fields- law, for example. I-banking, I'd consider Columbia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD was accepted to both Columbia and UVA as an ECHOLS Scholar earlier this year. UVA was dropped like a hot potato when she was accepted at 3 of the 4 HYPS she applied to. Columbia on the other hand stayed in consideration until late April. We are full pay but I would have had my kid chasing merit at schools like Vanderbilt and Emory if I was OP's friend.

This. If they got into Columbia there are some excellent private universities ready to throw money at them, right?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

[Anonymous]

Hell no. How is this even a question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am on a FB page for parents of my kid's incoming freshman class and I'm dumbfounded at comments such as, "When do we hear about our loans?" and "When do we apply for our loans?" We knew going into this process how much we had saved and how much we were able to pay out of pocket, and how much debt we were willing to take on (zero).

x 100

If you are college educated yourself, you have no excuse not to know this is coming and plan ahead. You had 18 years to figure out a plan of attack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone define "middle class" please. The term is so vague and almost everyone thinks they're middle class.

On DCUM, "middle class" seems to correspond with what most Americans would refer to as "upper middle class." These are typically people with HHI's of $200K, and up. By comparison, the median household income in the US is around $50-60K. Clearly, paying $50K/year for college, per child, is not realistic for people the latter demographic. Smart "lower middle class" kids tend to end up at state flagships. Smart UMC/rich kids go to elite privates.

By definition, the OP must fall into the latter category because people in the bolded have tuition and fees taken care of at elite schools like Columbia. That's how much they want them to attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OMG, BigLaw list posting PP - I love you!

Who wants to work in BigLaw though? Everyone I've ever met who has done it and people who post on these boards make it sound like Hell on earth and that you don't do it if you don't need the money. Earlier in the thread, people were talking about working at The New Yorker or comparable magazines. Sometime that is actually interesting and worthwhile. Let's do their undergraduate list. I have a feel there are very few Ohio State grads

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

Well then the parents need to repay them. Will that hurt their ability to save for retirement? Will it mean retirement has to be delayed for a long time? My DH will be ready to retire when our youngest finishes college. Repaying loans does not work with that plan. Also, can they do the same for other kids in the family? Taking out exorbitant loans for one child's education and then not doing that for the rest of the kids is setting up for a lot of family problems.

We've told our kids we can cover the cost of in-state public universities. In reality, I'd probably be willing to stretch another $10K over that IF (big IF) a more expensive big brand name school would provide a real advantage for them pursuing a particular goal. But not $40K extra per year. This assume they have a particular passion that this one school can help them achieve. Otherwise, based on the many people I have worked with and been friends with over my life, I just don't see that the brand name schools offer some amazing advantage over state universities for undergrad. I do think it matters in a lot of fields for grad school so the calculus changes there, but, again, at that point the student should have a particular goal and know how that school will help them achieve it. I'm not going to delay our retirement for years just so my child can go to Columbia to explore and figure out her interests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the case of UVa versus Columbia, I'd definitely pick UVa. It is just as good a school. Why pay more for the same quality?

+1.

+2 I'm not even a fan of UVA but I can't think of any area in which Columbia is notably stronger.

Well its an Ivy league school and its in one of the most amazing cities in the world, whereas UVA is not ivy league and is in a Southern state of zero cultural interest

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

Well then the parents need to repay them. Will that hurt their ability to save for retirement? Will it mean retirement has to be delayed for a long time? My DH will be ready to retire when our youngest finishes college. Repaying loans does not work with that plan. Also, can they do the same for other kids in the family? Taking out exorbitant loans for one child's education and then not doing that for the rest of the kids is setting up for a lot of family problems.

We've told our kids we can cover the cost of in-state public universities. In reality, I'd probably be willing to stretch another $10K over that IF (big IF) a more expensive big brand name school would provide a real advantage for them pursuing a particular goal. But not $40K extra per year. This assume they have a particular passion that this one school can help them achieve. Otherwise, based on the many people I have worked with and been friends with over my life, I just don't see that the brand name schools offer some amazing advantage over state universities for undergrad. I do think it matters in a lot of fields for grad school so the calculus changes there, but, again, at that point the student should have a particular goal and know how that school will help them achieve it. I'm not going to delay our retirement for years just so my child can go to Columbia to explore and figure out her interests.

selfish

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the case of UVa versus Columbia, I'd definitely pick UVa. It is just as good a school. Why pay more for the same quality?

+1.

+2 I'm not even a fan of UVA but I can't think of any area in which Columbia is notably stronger.

Well its an Ivy league school and its in one of the most amazing cities in the world, whereas UVA is not ivy league and is in a Southern state of zero cultural interest

+2

This is the bottom line.

I'm really surprised anyone thinks UVA is on par with Columbia.