Middle class families - Are you willing to take on a ton of debt for a top college?

[Anonymous]

IF my son got in and IF it were his dream to attend and IF I thought he would work hard and excel, then yes. If he'd be just as happy or only marginally less happy at UVA, then no. IF I thought he wouldn't apply himself once he got there, then, no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the case of UVa versus Columbia, I'd definitely pick UVa. It is just as good a school. Why pay more for the same quality?

Same quality? Lol... right...

+1

It's absolutely not the same quality. While not Harvard, Columbia will still open a ton of doors esp. in the art, publishing, and journalism industries in NYC which are super competitive.

You can't get those kinds of connections at uva. UVA is so provincial compared to going to school in NYC where you'd have the opportunity to do unpaid internships basically anywhere in the city as long as you can pay travel costs.

So you can then graduate and live in a shoebox and go into more debt trying to pay for housing. NYC has poor quality of life when you factor in how much you have to pay to live there. NYC is only for the rich who live their and there own people.

[Anonymous]

There
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[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're a donut hole family.

DD was not allowed to apply to any schools that didn't offer Merit Aid. Her guidance counselor was appalled, but we said no. She's at a perfectly nice, no-name SLAC that gave her a hefty scholarship, and she's happy. There are lots of nice, smart, talented kids at her school, most of them there because of the very generous merit aid and FA the school offers to lure them away from the much more selective, big-name schools.

The big name colleges and universities are no longer filled with the best and the brightest because they've priced themselves too high for the best and the brightest. Only the rich and the brightest may attend those schools. Or poorest and brightest, but no one in the middle unless they are willing to take on massive amounts of debt, which no intelligent person would do.

Another donut hole family here, with double-Ivy parents (including grad school) who'll be encouraging DCs to seek out other options. Despite college savings since birth and a HHI of $225K+, we're not able to swing $60-70K per year without a second mortgage, HELOC, etc., or DCs taking on debt. It's just not worth it. DC1 is a top student who'll likely find merit aid at a lesser known LAC or university; local, top-rated state school might be a good fit for DC2; we shall see.

I do believe there are very good options out there beyond the top tier, and as more and more donut hole DCs are shut out I can only imagine that student cohorts at non-big name institutions will continue to improve. I do wonder about the experience/quality of the faculty, though. Can anyone speak to that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're a donut hole family.

DD was not allowed to apply to any schools that didn't offer Merit Aid. Her guidance counselor was appalled, but we said no. She's at a perfectly nice, no-name SLAC that gave her a hefty scholarship, and she's happy. There are lots of nice, smart, talented kids at her school, most of them there because of the very generous merit aid and FA the school offers to lure them away from the much more selective, big-name schools.

The big name colleges and universities are no longer filled with the best and the brightest because they've priced themselves too high for the best and the brightest. Only the rich and the brightest may attend those schools. Or poorest and brightest, but no one in the middle unless they are willing to take on massive amounts of debt, which no intelligent person would do.

Another donut hole family here, with double-Ivy parents (including grad school) who'll be encouraging DCs to seek out other options. Despite college savings since birth and a HHI of $225K+, we're not able to swing $60-70K per year without a second mortgage, HELOC, etc., or DCs taking on debt. It's just not worth it. DC1 is a top student who'll likely find merit aid at a lesser known LAC or university; local, top-rated state school might be a good fit for DC2; we shall see.

I do believe there are very good options out there beyond the top tier, and as more and more donut hole DCs are shut out I can only imagine that student cohorts at non-big name institutions will continue to improve. I do wonder about the experience/quality of the faculty, though. Can anyone speak to that?

In my experience, it really just depends on the college and the best way, IMO, is to sit in on as many classes, including ones that are more discussion based, as you can when you visit. My DH and I are also Ivy graduates, graduates of a top 15 law school and yet another donut hole family. We have 3 DCs and feel/felt the same way you do, 10:15. Our oldest just graduated from a small LAC in the midwest that is rarely mentioned on DCUM (a Colleges that Change Lives College), although DC1 was accepted by a couple colleges that rank in the top 20 by USNWR. DC1 went to the midwest college for two reasons: 1) DC1 was awarded their top scholarship and 2) DC1 liked the college very much when DC1 visited over the course of a few days. DH and I both feel strongly that DC1 got a better education at this college than we got at our Ivys. We reached this conclusion after sitting in several of classes over the course of attending multiple parent weekends, the deep and personal relationships DC1 developed with professors and some wonderful research opportunities DC1 was able to participate in. I am sure that at this SLAC the intellect, ambition and curiosity of DC1s peers varied more widely than at a more prestigious college but our DC easily found peers and DH and I were very impressed by the students we met and saw in the classrooms. Our other DCs attend UVA, largely because it is affordable. DC2 really wanted to attend UVA so we didn't expend much effort looking at other colleges in a more detailed manner once DC2 was accepted early action. We did spend a decent amount of time looking at other SLACs for DC3, mainly ones that offered significant merit aid, including sitting in on various classes while touring and attending accepted student days. At a couple of them (also frequently mentioned on this board as being excellent options for families like ours) while DH and DC3 liked the professors, they were not particularly impressed with the classroom - most of the students seemed indifferent and the professors had difficulty getting them involved in class discussions. I realize that those classes were not necessarily representative of the colleges as a whole but nevertheless that's what DC3 and DH saw. We did not sit in on classes at a couple USNWR top 20 and 30 SLACs that offered DC3 merit money because those colleges were still going to cost significantly more than UVA and W&M, both of which accepted DC3. DC3 was disappointed and would have liked to be able to seriously consider those SLACs but it just didn't make sense financially.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, PP. Can you tell me which school DC1 attended? Or at least give me a hint?

And did DC1's opportunity to sit in on classes take place after learning of acceptance? Are such programs common these days? Sounds like a lot to squeeze in between mid-March and May 1!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're a donut hole family.

DD was not allowed to apply to any schools that didn't offer Merit Aid. Her guidance counselor was appalled, but we said no. She's at a perfectly nice, no-name SLAC that gave her a hefty scholarship, and she's happy. There are lots of nice, smart, talented kids at her school, most of them there because of the very generous merit aid and FA the school offers to lure them away from the much more selective, big-name schools.

The big name colleges and universities are no longer filled with the best and the brightest because they've priced themselves too high for the best and the brightest. Only the rich and the brightest may attend those schools. Or poorest and brightest, but no one in the middle unless they are willing to take on massive amounts of debt, which no intelligent person would do.

Another donut hole family here, with double-Ivy parents (including grad school) who'll be encouraging DCs to seek out other options. Despite college savings since birth and a HHI of $225K+, we're not able to swing $60-70K per year without a second mortgage, HELOC, etc., or DCs taking on debt. It's just not worth it. DC1 is a top student who'll likely find merit aid at a lesser known LAC or university; local, top-rated state school might be a good fit for DC2; we shall see.

I do believe there are very good options out there beyond the top tier, and as more and more donut hole DCs are shut out I can only imagine that student cohorts at non-big name institutions will continue to improve. I do wonder about the experience/quality of the faculty, though. Can anyone speak to that?

In my experience, it really just depends on the college and the best way, IMO, is to sit in on as many classes, including ones that are more discussion based, as you can when you visit. My DH and I are also Ivy graduates, graduates of a top 15 law school and yet another donut hole family. We have 3 DCs and feel/felt the same way you do, 10:15. Our oldest just graduated from a small LAC in the midwest that is rarely mentioned on DCUM (a Colleges that Change Lives College), although DC1 was accepted by a couple colleges that rank in the top 20 by USNWR. DC1 went to the midwest college for two reasons: 1) DC1 was awarded their top scholarship and 2) DC1 liked the college very much when DC1 visited over the course of a few days. DH and I both feel strongly that DC1 got a better education at this college than we got at our Ivys. We reached this conclusion after sitting in several of classes over the course of attending multiple parent weekends, the deep and personal relationships DC1 developed with professors and some wonderful research opportunities DC1 was able to participate in. I am sure that at this SLAC the intellect, ambition and curiosity of DC1s peers varied more widely than at a more prestigious college but our DC easily found peers and DH and I were very impressed by the students we met and saw in the classrooms. Our other DCs attend UVA, largely because it is affordable. DC2 really wanted to attend UVA so we didn't expend much effort looking at other colleges in a more detailed manner once DC2 was accepted early action. We did spend a decent amount of time looking at other SLACs for DC3, mainly ones that offered significant merit aid, including sitting in on various classes while touring and attending accepted student days. At a couple of them (also frequently mentioned on this board as being excellent options for families like ours) while DH and DC3 liked the professors, they were not particularly impressed with the classroom - most of the students seemed indifferent and the professors had difficulty getting them involved in class discussions. I realize that those classes were not necessarily representative of the colleges as a whole but nevertheless that's what DC3 and DH saw. We did not sit in on classes at a couple USNWR top 20 and 30 SLACs that offered DC3 merit money because those colleges were still going to cost significantly more than UVA and W&M, both of which accepted DC3. DC3 was disappointed and would have liked to be able to seriously consider those SLACs but it just didn't make sense financially.

+1 including same HHI and a DC at a SLAC in the Midwest. Our younger DC will have the same options - private or OOS school with merit aid, or UMD-CP.

[Anonymous]

Regarding faculty quality, there is a huge overproduction of PhD's in almost all fields. They can't ALL end up teaching at Harvard! They also 'trickle down'. I recently encountered a guy with a D.Phil from Cambridge University in England who teaches at a small liberal arts college in Alabama. He loves it there, is a wonderful teacher and considers himself lucky to have a full time tenure track job doing what he loves. There are actually a lot of these people in state schools and liberal arts colleges in many locations that a DC snob would consider undesirable.

[Anonymous]

take a look......Broke, Busted, Disgusted A Documentary About Student Debt Crisi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ruPghP57w