Harvard's Black Commencement

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


Wow! Nailed it.


Not really.

PP forgot to mentioned how much money from the white taxpayers are poured into so called "black communities" and different types of programs to bring them up. Don't pretend that white people don't deal with those problems. I've seen a lot of white social workers, probation officers who works with AA minors who got in trouble. But no amount of money and no number of white social workers, no matter how many programs you create can fix crime and poverty unless so called black communities change their attitude toward education and work ethics.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


White chick here. I grew up in a neighborhood where I was one of very few white kids in my school and the only one on my bus. I could write an entire mini series about how I was excluded and blatantly made fun of on a daily basis. It was awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But now as an adult, I'm always told that I don't understand and my "white privelige" has made me blind race issues.


It's usually young people, from affluent, UMC backgrounds, that bring up about "white privilege" the most, while simultaneously looking down on less-affluent LMC/Working Class people who live in "Flyover Country."
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


White chick here. I grew up in a neighborhood where I was one of very few white kids in my school and the only one on my bus. I could write an entire mini series about how I was excluded and blatantly made fun of on a daily basis. It was awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But now as an adult, I'm always told that I don't understand and my "white privelige" has made me blind race issues.


I am AA and grew up in a predominantly White area and I experienced the same from the White kids. Luckily for me there were institutions where I could go to get support - AA church in the neighboring town was one. My dad's AA fraternity youth guild was another. So that being said, I am glad that these students had a group they could turn to to get support and motivation. Based on what you went through growing up, you probably can see a need for it too for students who are not the majority in their school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


I'm not sure you're reading this correctly. I don't believe anybody would ever say there should t be a black community. I think the prevailing sentiment is that at some point you also must integrate with the rest i society. I've read many breads on this board making the accurate observation of how difficult it is for some AA kids to adjust to line in college. This is a real issue and AAs consequently have lower graduation rate, even from top schools. But maybe, just maybe, if those AA students didn't stick together so clannishly in HS and integrated more with the broader student population, would they have had an easier time in college? I could say the same for the college to workplace transition. I think organizations like Jack and a Jill are great, but not at the exclusion of forming social bonds with the rest of the student body.


Do you have any facts and stats to support your suggestion that black college graduates who predominantly congregate with one one another struggle with the college to workplace transition. Show me instances and provide testimonies that support your claim that black college graduates who attend a ceremony celebrating their collective achievements have difficulty integrating with the rest of society. Ask the multitude of minorities that you're so chummy with - all the black friends and black neighbors and black colleagues you know so well if the reason they so smoothly assimilated into your world and acquired the skills to associate with you so well is because they refrained from associating with other blacks in college.

Let me know what the consensus is.


Honestly, the sentiment about POC not feeling comfortable or fitting in is something I've gotten from many, many comments from POC posters to that effect on this board.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


White chick here. I grew up in a neighborhood where I was one of very few white kids in my school and the only one on my bus. I could write an entire mini series about how I was excluded and blatantly made fun of on a daily basis. It was awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But now as an adult, I'm always told that I don't understand and my "white privelige" has made me blind race issues.

Then I would think that you, of all people, would understand what minority students experience at a predominantly white university.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


Wow! Nailed it.


Not really.

PP forgot to mentioned how much money from the white taxpayers are poured into so called "black communities" and different types of programs to bring them up. Don't pretend that white people don't deal with those problems. I've seen a lot of white social workers, probation officers who works with AA minors who got in trouble. But no amount of money and no number of white social workers, no matter how many programs you create can fix crime and poverty unless so called black communities change their attitude toward education and work ethics.


You are a one song band.

Ironically, it is people who think like you that make this sort of network of POC students necessary at a university. If they are doing what society tells them they should be doing, but they are STILL going to get lumped in with others, they certainly need to support each other and uplift each other. Because at the end of the day, most of the White kids they are going to school with think like you.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


Wow! Nailed it.


Not really.

PP forgot to mentioned how much money from the white taxpayers are poured into so called "black communities" and different types of programs to bring them up. Don't pretend that white people don't deal with those problems. I've seen a lot of white social workers, probation officers who works with AA minors who got in trouble. But no amount of money and no number of white social workers, no matter how many programs you create can fix crime and poverty unless so called black communities change their attitude toward education and work ethics.


Here's a novel idea - maybe we could encourage those black Harvard graduates to get together for a day in celebration and collaboration to motivate them to reform and redefine the "black community" that you and many others are convinced is solely comprised of poverty stricken criminals and leeches to the American taxpayer. Don't pretend that white people were primarily responsible for those students academic achievements - I'm quite confident they leaned on their black family and black friends and were effectively influenced and encouraged by black teachers and black mentors and black classmates to successfully further their education. I know it goes against the popular narrative that you and many others like to perpetuate, but those students are part of the black community also and their exemplary attitude and work ethic is what enabled them to succeed at an Ivy League school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


Wow! Nailed it.


Not really.

PP forgot to mentioned how much money from the white taxpayers are poured into so called "black communities" and different types of programs to bring them up. Don't pretend that white people don't deal with those problems. I've seen a lot of white social workers, probation officers who works with AA minors who got in trouble. But no amount of money and no number of white social workers, no matter how many programs you create can fix crime and poverty unless so called black communities change their attitude toward education and work ethics.


Here's a novel idea - maybe we could encourage those black Harvard graduates to get together for a day in celebration and collaboration to motivate them to reform and redefine the "black community" that you and many others are convinced is solely comprised of poverty stricken criminals and leeches to the American taxpayer. Don't pretend that white people were primarily responsible for those students academic achievements - I'm quite confident they leaned on their black family and black friends and were effectively influenced and encouraged by black teachers and black mentors and black classmates to successfully further their education. I know it goes against the popular narrative that you and many others like to perpetuate, but those students are part of the black community also and their exemplary attitude and work ethic is what enabled them to succeed at an Ivy League school.


That chip on your shoulder must be cripplingly heavy Seriously, that's a great idea....but fair warning, it may take more than a day.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So basically when it comes to negative things like crime and violence and poverty there is this thing called the "black community" - IT DOES EXIST - and it is the sole responsibility of that "black community" is to fix all those problems and cure all those social ills and basically get it together because as its often echoed and propagated, the "black community" is a mess, so there is a great need for black people to get together and respect one another.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to positive things like academic achievement and dream fulfillment and opening doors to greater opportunity there is no such thing as a "black community" - IT SHOULD NOT EXIST - and it is a slap in the face of whites everywhere for black students to try and establish a "black community" to support one another and network with one another and celebrate one another because as its often echoed and propagated, the "white community" is pure paradise, so there is no need for black people to get together and recognize one another because they're already in heaven at Harvard.


Wow! Nailed it.


Not really.

PP forgot to mentioned how much money from the white taxpayers are poured into so called "black communities" and different types of programs to bring them up. Don't pretend that white people don't deal with those problems. I've seen a lot of white social workers, probation officers who works with AA minors who got in trouble. But no amount of money and no number of white social workers, no matter how many programs you create can fix crime and poverty unless so called black communities change their attitude toward education and work ethics.


Here's a novel idea - maybe we could encourage those black Harvard graduates to get together for a day in celebration and collaboration to motivate them to reform and redefine the "black community" that you and many others are convinced is solely comprised of poverty stricken criminals and leeches to the American taxpayer. Don't pretend that white people were primarily responsible for those students academic achievements - I'm quite confident they leaned on their black family and black friends and were effectively influenced and encouraged by black teachers and black mentors and black classmates to successfully further their education. I know it goes against the popular narrative that you and many others like to perpetuate, but those students are part of the black community also and their exemplary attitude and work ethic is what enabled them to succeed at an Ivy League school.


That chip on your shoulder must be cripplingly heavy Seriously, that's a great idea....but fair warning, it may take more than a day.


Your impressions of me are irrelevant but I do agree with you - its a great idea for those students to have a ceremony honoring students of the African diaspora.
And you know what, all arguments aside, at the end of the day in spite all the screams from critics and detractors such as yourself throughout cyberspace the simple fact of the matter is that those students ARE INDEED going to have their commencement ceremony...and I applaud them.
As for you and others who share your sentiments and are so aghast and insulted by this event I wholeheartedly encourage you to express your disapproval and hell I even encourage you to catch a plane to Cambridge and protest the event - it'll only serve to fuel their fire and strengthen their bonds.
It will indeed take more than a day but staunch opposition always seems to speed things up a little
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


There is just the norm, not the black or white or brown norm. And yes, the norm today is predominantly driven by the historic prevalence of white culture, but that is changing fairly quickly (relative to the past). So you can take a seat at the table and put your imprint on how the norm will evolve or you can have your own table in the dining hall, your own fraternities, your own ceremonies, etc. Nobody is saying that every minority group shouldn't be loud and proud about their own culture and celebrate any way they choose, but you seem intent on segregation. And your false equivalencies about the "crossing the aisle" are just infantile. BTw, you might want to study how the LGBTQ community managed to change the norm in a remarkable fashion regarding same-sex marriage. It wasn't too many years ago that Obama, Clinton and the entire democratic establishment were firmly against this issue. But by engaging with the mainstream and educating and socializing, the LGBTQ community has now made same-sex marriage part of the mainstream ideology. That's called progress. What you're advocating is a regressive, dead-end approach. But go ahead and hold steadfast to your belief, witness zero progress towards racial unity and then blame everybody but yourself.


You actually just proved my point. And the "infantile" remarks and the like are totally un-called for. But that is the DCUM way. I disagree with you personally, so let me insult you. Cool. Just realize that is more a reflection on you than it is me.

What is racial unity? Define it. Because based on comments like this - that is "whitewashing" (no pun intended). What I want is the acceptance and embracing of diversity. We are different. There is not a dang thing wrong with that. But our differences do not make us inferior or superior to one another. And we can appreciate the differences that we have and the resulting different experiences and perspectives. Being pro-POC is not being anti-White. It's not that hard.

I am not intent on segregation. What I am intent on is being able to celebrate my tradition without someone accusing me of wanting segregation. Instead of sitting there criticizing me, come sit and MY table and participate. But you would rather me come to your table or you would rather stand there and criticize me for having my own table.

Ironically, my DD's college had a LGBTQ student graduation celebration also. Guess that was wrong too.
If there was a DCUM applaud icon, I would gladly give it to you. Settle for a + million instead.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


There is just the norm, not the black or white or brown norm. And yes, the norm today is predominantly driven by the historic prevalence of white culture, but that is changing fairly quickly (relative to the past). So you can take a seat at the table and put your imprint on how the norm will evolve or you can have your own table in the dining hall, your own fraternities, your own ceremonies, etc. Nobody is saying that every minority group shouldn't be loud and proud about their own culture and celebrate any way they choose, but you seem intent on segregation. And your false equivalencies about the "crossing the aisle" are just infantile. BTw, you might want to study how the LGBTQ community managed to change the norm in a remarkable fashion regarding same-sex marriage. It wasn't too many years ago that Obama, Clinton and the entire democratic establishment were firmly against this issue. But by engaging with the mainstream and educating and socializing, the LGBTQ community has now made same-sex marriage part of the mainstream ideology. That's called progress. What you're advocating is a regressive, dead-end approach. But go ahead and hold steadfast to your belief, witness zero progress towards racial unity and then blame everybody but yourself.


You actually just proved my point. And the "infantile" remarks and the like are totally un-called for. But that is the DCUM way. I disagree with you personally, so let me insult you. Cool. Just realize that is more a reflection on you than it is me.

What is racial unity? Define it. Because based on comments like this - that is "whitewashing" (no pun intended). What I want is the acceptance and embracing of diversity. We are different. There is not a dang thing wrong with that. But our differences do not make us inferior or superior to one another. And we can appreciate the differences that we have and the resulting different experiences and perspectives. Being pro-POC is not being anti-White. It's not that hard.

I am not intent on segregation. What I am intent on is being able to celebrate my tradition without someone accusing me of wanting segregation. Instead of sitting there criticizing me, come sit at MY table and participate. But you would rather me come to your table or you would rather stand there and criticize me for having my own table.

Ironically, my DD's college had a LGBTQ student graduation celebration also. Guess that was wrong too.
If there was a DCUM applaud icon, I would gladly give it to you. Settle for a + million instead.


+1 Love this. LoooooooVe it!!
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


There is just the norm, not the black or white or brown norm. And yes, the norm today is predominantly driven by the historic prevalence of white culture, but that is changing fairly quickly (relative to the past). So you can take a seat at the table and put your imprint on how the norm will evolve or you can have your own table in the dining hall, your own fraternities, your own ceremonies, etc. Nobody is saying that every minority group shouldn't be loud and proud about their own culture and celebrate any way they choose, but you seem intent on segregation. And your false equivalencies about the "crossing the aisle" are just infantile. BTw, you might want to study how the LGBTQ community managed to change the norm in a remarkable fashion regarding same-sex marriage. It wasn't too many years ago that Obama, Clinton and the entire democratic establishment were firmly against this issue. But by engaging with the mainstream and educating and socializing, the LGBTQ community has now made same-sex marriage part of the mainstream ideology. That's called progress. What you're advocating is a regressive, dead-end approach. But go ahead and hold steadfast to your belief, witness zero progress towards racial unity and then blame everybody but yourself.


You actually just proved my point. And the "infantile" remarks and the like are totally un-called for. But that is the DCUM way. I disagree with you personally, so let me insult you. Cool. Just realize that is more a reflection on you than it is me.

What is racial unity? Define it. Because based on comments like this - that is "whitewashing" (no pun intended). What I want is the acceptance and embracing of diversity. We are different. There is not a dang thing wrong with that. But our differences do not make us inferior or superior to one another. And we can appreciate the differences that we have and the resulting different experiences and perspectives. Being pro-POC is not being anti-White. It's not that hard.

I am not intent on segregation. What I am intent on is being able to celebrate my tradition without someone accusing me of wanting segregation. Instead of sitting there criticizing me, come sit at MY table and participate. But you would rather me come to your table or you would rather stand there and criticize me for having my own table.

Ironically, my DD's college had a LGBTQ student graduation celebration also. Guess that was wrong too.
If there was a DCUM applaud icon, I would gladly give it to you. Settle for a + million instead.


+1 Love this. LoooooooVe it!!


+2. #micdrop
Anonymous
LOL. All this talk about racial unity and segregation.

Racial unity is NOT the Black kids saying “Hey, we better not have a ceremony celebrating ourselves because it will make some Whites uncomfortable.” That’s capitulation.

Racial unity is a bunch of White students showing up to the ceremony to acknowledge and support their Black classmates.

You tell me which one will have a more lasting unifying impact.

- A WW who sees no problem with this type of program
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have found that with some White people, this idea of integration and inclusion is a sham. The reason being that the “default” standard for integration is based on White norms. In other words, Whites want POC who integrate to meet them on their playing field – meet them in their safe space. The question I have for Whites who somehow think these types of ceremonies are divisive is whether you are willing to “cross the aisle” in the name of inclusion and integration. Would you join a Black church? How about a Black sorority? Would you join an Asian chamber of commerce organization? Or is it that you expect POC to abandon their traditions and norms to integrate with you? Just curious. Instead of condemning these ceremonies, ask if you can attend. My grad school roommate was Asian and I attended the university’s Asian celebration to support her. Her family and others there appreciated that I was willing to embrace what they were doing and support her.


White chick here. I grew up in a neighborhood where I was one of very few white kids in my school and the only one on my bus. I could write an entire mini series about how I was excluded and blatantly made fun of on a daily basis. It was awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But now as an adult, I'm always told that I don't understand and my "white privelige" has made me blind race issues.


I am AA and grew up in a predominantly White area and I experienced the same from the White kids. Luckily for me there were institutions where I could go to get support - AA church in the neighboring town was one. My dad's AA fraternity youth guild was another. So that being said, I am glad that these students had a group they could turn to to get support and motivation. Based on what you went through growing up, you probably can see a need for it too for students who are not the majority in their school.


How could a white person find solace in predominately white things in a black community? These things don't exist. And can you imagine the backlash if anyone tried?
Anonymous
Black grad of Harvard College and two of their grad schools. Not a good idea 30 years ago, when I attended, and worse idea now.
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