Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work

[Anonymous]

Doctors get paid in different ways. But a doctor who can't get patients doesn't get paid. Teachers are protected from that situation, because children are put into their classrooms whether they're competent or not. I can fire my doctor fairly easily. Changing a teacher for my child is basically impossible, in my experience.

Your "doctor who can't get patients doesn't get paid" is the equivalent of a teacher who opens a private school but can't get any students. In this scenario, we're talking public school teachers, so an ER doctor would be a better comparison. He receives all-comers in that public hospital. It wouldn't make sense to create a system of merit pay in such a case. Or even in the case of the private doctor. He can only work with what comes into his office. He should not lose pay because the smoker who refuses to quit lighting up outside of his office visits develops lung cancer. And dentists should not be penalized because their patients eat candy for every meal, refuse to brush and floss and develops cavities.

Many jobs are judged in part based on how others respond.

1. This is not about how others 'respond'. It's about their OUTCOMES--which are based on THEIR efforts. The teacher can guide but can't force the kid to perform or take tests for them.
2. We're talking adolescents here. They are not known for having the most appropriate responses or judgement.

A salesperson can be a great salesperson, but be selling an atrocious product. Is that their "fault?" Their pay will be dependent on the product, not on their sales ability. Decorators have to make you happy with what they've done. It doesn't matter if you want something horrible looking and they've designed something that's amazing. The guy out swinging the "sale!" sign for the furniture store isn't going to get extra pay for drumming up business if the weather is bad and people aren't stopping, or if the furniture store down the street is having a better sale, or ... any number of things that he has no control over at all.

Your analogies make no sense at all. You're talking COMMISSION--not MERIT pay. You're also talking BUSINESS and products. It is my understanding that students are HUMANS--with issues, frailties, faults, strengths and weaknesses. THIS is what makes merit pay difficult.

Do you realize that often there are elements involved that the person has absolutely no control over? There's really not that much special about teachers in that regard? But what is special about teachers is they have a captive audience, it's a lot harder for the people "consuming" a teacher's services to go elsewhere to help motivate the people who hire the teacher to let a bad teacher go or get a bad teacher training to make them a better teacher.

Parents leave public schools and go private all the time. Parents have that option.

[Anonymous]

One problem with scheduling meetings is they are scheduled in the middle of the work day and many parents work. Our teacher complained my husband did not attend the IEP meetings and I said he worked an hour away and he'd miss the entire day of work. So, they pretend to be flexible and schedule it at 10:30 instead of 1. That means he would not get into work till noon. If you want parent participate you need to be a bit more flexible.

Nah. If you care about your child, you will do what it takes to be there for them. There is NOTHING convenient about having children. Sometimes you've gotta take that day off of work when it's important enough. I'm sure you've both taken off for less before.

Maybe mom is too exhausted from working overnight. Maybe mom is like me and has health issues that meds are ineffective or or maybe mom can't get to the doctor due to income/cost. Life isn't as simple as you want it to be. There are days if it were not for my husband my kids might miss a day or two because I can't drive them to school (no bus). In the past, one did miss school sometimes due to my health. School was 30 minutes away and if my husband left before I got up and I didn't know the night before, not much we could do about it.

None of this is the school/teacher's problem. It's (your) LIFE. Work it out. We all do.

On the other hand, I feel completely excluded from the classroom. I have no idea what goes on and when I ask the teacher refers me to the county website for the general information. I've ask for the name of the workbook she uses for homework assignments. She gave me the wrong one twice. (how hard is it to take a picture and send it). Or, better, why not send a weekly email to the parents letting them know what their kids learned and will learn the following week.

Maybe you feel excluded because you have health issues, ineffective meds, doctors appointments, and all the other stuff you mentioned that keeps you from being 100% involved with your children's education.

If/When you go to open house, they give you that information and show you the textbooks. And you're probably asking questions that you should know the answers to. The fact that you're directed to the county website suggests this. You can't fail to be there for your children due to all of the excuses you gave, but then expect the teacher to go out of her way to accommodate your lack of involvement.

[Anonymous]

To the parent who isn't able to attend IEP meetings, you can "attend" via a conference call. Many parents do this who are hourly employees at my school. They can't afford to take hours off because they need to use public transportation to and from school and their job. Half of the IEP meetings I attend are conference calls. We even use an interpreter too during these calls if the parent doesn't speak English.

[Anonymous]

That's a good suggestion. I have been in conferences and meetings where a parent has attended via conference call. We also hold IEPs any time between about 8 am and 4 pm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One problem with scheduling meetings is they are scheduled in the middle of the work day and many parents work. Our teacher complained my husband did not attend the IEP meetings and I said he worked an hour away and he'd miss the entire day of work. So, they pretend to be flexible and schedule it at 10:30 instead of 1. That means he would not get into work till noon. If you want parent participate you need to be a bit more flexible.

Nah. If you care about your child, you will do what it takes to be there for them. There is NOTHING convenient about having children. Sometimes you've gotta take that day off of work when it's important enough. I'm sure you've both taken off for less before.

Maybe mom is too exhausted from working overnight. Maybe mom is like me and has health issues that meds are ineffective or or maybe mom can't get to the doctor due to income/cost. Life isn't as simple as you want it to be. There are days if it were not for my husband my kids might miss a day or two because I can't drive them to school (no bus). In the past, one did miss school sometimes due to my health. School was 30 minutes away and if my husband left before I got up and I didn't know the night before, not much we could do about it.

None of this is the school/teacher's problem. It's (your) LIFE. Work it out. We all do.

On the other hand, I feel completely excluded from the classroom. I have no idea what goes on and when I ask the teacher refers me to the county website for the general information. I've ask for the name of the workbook she uses for homework assignments. She gave me the wrong one twice. (how hard is it to take a picture and send it). Or, better, why not send a weekly email to the parents letting them know what their kids learned and will learn the following week.

Maybe you feel excluded because you have health issues, ineffective meds, doctors appointments, and all the other stuff you mentioned that keeps you from being 100% involved with your children's education.

If/When you go to open house, they give you that information and show you the textbooks. And you're probably asking questions that you should know the answers to. The fact that you're directed to the county website suggests this. You can't fail to be there for your children due to all of the excuses you gave, but then expect the teacher to go out of her way to accommodate your lack of involvement.

What textbooks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do you realize that often there are elements involved that the person has absolutely no control over? There's really not that much special about teachers in that regard? But what is special about teachers is they have a captive audience, it's a lot harder for the people "consuming" a teacher's services to go elsewhere to help motivate the people who hire the teacher to let a bad teacher go or get a bad teacher training to make them a better teacher.

Parents leave public schools and go private all the time. Parents have that option.

Really? Any parents dissatisfied with public can just easy peasy send their kids to private school, and that's your solution for bad or merely inadequate teachers in public school?

You live in a dream world.

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

[Anonymous]

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

Np- I've complained to the SB, the CB ... it makes no difference. Bring on the vouchers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the parent who isn't able to attend IEP meetings, you can "attend" via a conference call. Many parents do this who are hourly employees at my school. They can't afford to take hours off because they need to use public transportation to and from school and their job. Half of the IEP meetings I attend are conference calls. We even use an interpreter too during these calls if the parent doesn't speak English.

I asked if my husband could appear by phone and was told no since I was there. Its great your school is like that but it was made clear to me in the meetings that our input and our private therapists was not wanted. We gave up and there is one in place but I have no idea what is going on at school and we do services privately as the group therapy they placed my child in doesn't match his needs. Any time I tried to bring up a concern, they dismissed it saying I was being defensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

Np- I've complained to the SB, the CB ... it makes no difference. Bring on the vouchers.

I'd just like more affordable non-religious privates so we have choice. We were at one till my child aged out and it was far better. School board is not responsive. We have complained and they refused to help (in specific things like enrolling my child or getting services that we should have been entitled to).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers in "wealthier" schools don't exactly have it easy. The grass is always greener.

I've done both. Different challenges, but, believe me it is easier to teach in a wealthier school. Sure, the parents are pests, but, just try to schedule a meeting with a parent in one of the really, really poor schools. Try teaching where you have two or three kids absent at least once a week because mom couldn't get out of bed. Try teaching kids who think that the only way to play is to hit or push other kids. The kids are loveable and you feel very needed, but it is extremely exhausting. And, now, with everything driven by test scores, it is extremely difficult to teach what they need.

One problem with scheduling meetings is they are scheduled in the middle of the work day and many parents work. Our teacher complained my husband did not attend the IEP meetings and I said he worked an hour away and he'd miss the entire day of work. So, they pretend to be flexible and schedule it at 10:30 instead of 1. That means he would not get into work till noon. If you want parent participate you need to be a bit more flexible.

Maybe mom is too exhausted from working overnight. Maybe mom is like me and has health issues that meds are ineffective or or maybe mom can't get to the doctor due to income/cost. Life isn't as simple as you want it to be. There are days if it were not for my husband my kids might miss a day or two because I can't drive them to school (no bus). In the past, one did miss school sometimes due to my health. School was 30 minutes away and if my husband left before I got up and I didn't know the night before, not much we could do about it.

On the other hand, I feel completely excluded from the classroom. I have no idea what goes on and when I ask the teacher refers me to the county website for the general information. I've ask for the name of the workbook she uses for homework assignments. She gave me the wrong one twice. (how hard is it to take a picture and send it). Or, better, why not send a weekly email to the parents letting them know what their kids learned and will learn the following week.

Did you think that having kids would be convenient? There are a lot of things that need to be done that aren't convenient but it's the cost of doing business (i.e. having kids). Sorry having kids gets in the way of your life. Maybe you need to move to an area with bus service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

Np- I've complained to the SB, the CB ... it makes no difference. Bring on the vouchers.

I'd just like more affordable non-religious privates so we have choice. We were at one till my child aged out and it was far better. School board is not responsive. We have complained and they refused to help (in specific things like enrolling my child or getting services that we should have been entitled to).

Just curious. What made the private better? How did you need help enrolling and what services were you denied that you are entitled to receive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

Np- I've complained to the SB, the CB ... it makes no difference. Bring on the vouchers.

I'd just like more affordable non-religious privates so we have choice. We were at one till my child aged out and it was far better. School board is not responsive. We have complained and they refused to help (in specific things like enrolling my child or getting services that we should have been entitled to).

Just curious. What made the private better? How did you need help enrolling and what services were you denied that you are entitled to receive?

Private can be better because they do not have to provide the services to SN students. They can expel the disruptive ADHD kids, the Autistic kids, etc. However, you have to pay for that luxury. And it is expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My neighborhood is full of people who would love to have options other than the zoned public school for their children, but they don't have the money to make private work (assuming there were enough private schools to accept the kids). But I love how you have no problem at all sacrificing children for a jobs program for teachers. Kids don't need to learn. We just need to make sure we don't do anything to disrupt teachers getting paid!

From what I understand, our new administration hopes to change this.

To the detriment of all public schools.

Most people who complain on here don't bother complaining to their school or school board. Start there and be the instrument for making the changes you want to see.

My children are in private school because the public school failed them. Complaining to the administration that the teacher was phoning in her teaching and lacked classroom management skills, choosing to humiliate "problem" children instead of providing a suitable environment for teaching was met with no change. They offered additional supervision for the teacher, nothing changed. They said it wasn't possible to change my child's classroom, that we should be willing to deal with a lost year educationally and for my child to see a powerful adult humiliate children regularly.

If children weren't a captive audience and parents weren't ignored, perhaps I might be sympathetic to someone worrying about public schools. I worry about the children left behind in families who don't have the option to send them to a place where they can get appropriate and effective education.