Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be worried word would get out to parents and teachers that Mrs. A gets paid more than Mrs. B and then there would be a fight among parents for Mrs. A. Also, Mrs. B may be jealous of Mrs. A and not want to work constructively with her on curriculum planning and particular students they share. Since not all children can get Mrs. A, this system doesn't work.

Mrs. B being jealous of Mrs. A and refusing to work with her is just a good indication that Mrs. B is in the wrong field and needs to leave teaching.

How do people in other professions manage to work with people who earn more or less than they do? Are teachers so petty that it's an impossibility for them to imagine that someone might be better (or have more recognizably better skills in particular areas) or worse (or have fewer recognizably better skills) than they are?

I work in a merit pay based system. It is not "fair" in the sense that everyone would agree about how the merit pay is allocated and judged. But the metrics are understandable, even if they can't possibly cover everything and tend to cover measurable things even when those things aren't the most important aspects of the job. So in that sense it is fair. It's not fair in the sense that everyone would always be judged the same no matter what - different supervisors rate people differently. It's part of life. It's fascinating that teachers find that unfathomable (although early child care workers and university professors seem less befuddled by the concept).

How many other job salaries are tied to how well someone else does at their job? Are doctors graded on how healthy their patients are? That's why merit pay doesn't work. We are grading the students and not the teacher in order to figure out a salary for a teacher. In addition, there are few promotions that a teacher can have so it becomes strange to have all of these merit and longevity pay scales for the same job tasks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
As a teacher, don't you also see some practical difficulties with parents and other teachers if you are paid more or less than they are?


If you want a higher income, then you need to change professions. You cannot complain someone else is making more money when you choose the profession.

This is not helpful. At all. The point is to encourage people to stay so that programs and communities can be made stronger. You can't do that with high turnover.

[Anonymous]

I think you need to look more inclusively not just at test scores and progress but by observations, parental survey's and progress of the individual students. You are always going to get a mix of kids and that's part of teaching. At our school, my SN kid is except from testing (which makes no sense when his test scores on the one test he did do was very good). So, they always have loopholes. I'd like to have input into my children's teachers ratings. Teachers who do extra deserve the merit pay... those that work with and other professionals involved with the kids, those who engage parents in the classroom and let parents know what is going on, those who really teach vs. lump kids together based off what is easiest and meet individual kids needs, etc. We've had great teachers where I know what is going on and feel really a part of my child's education and we work together. It makes it better when what we supplement at home is equal or a bit ahead of what is done at school. This year, no parent/teacher conference, I have no idea what is going on in the classroom, teacher will not speak with outside professionals who have worked with my child for years, has her in a reading and math group way below her ability and never corrects work or helps while they are doing it. There are several teachers and aides and a small class size so there is no excuse for what is going on. Teachers like that should not be rewarded. Our principal thinks very highly of the classroom and has no idea what others think.

So, if the teacher puts the child in the group the parent chooses, then she gets more pay? Versus, putting the child in the group she tests into at school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think most teachers are pretty good. The top "10%'ers" can go to the privates and can make the big bucks if money is the issue.

The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.

Leadership IS allowed to fire "the bad ones". I've seen it happen several times. They fired tenured teachers.

Tenure doesn't mean that the teacher cannot be fired. It simply means that the principal must have JUST CAUSE to fire him/her. Without it, principals would fire the teacher s/he doesn't like for whatever reason. The one who refuses to take on extra activities, the one who disagrees with him in a meeting, the one who just refuses to kiss his ass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be worried word would get out to parents and teachers that Mrs. A gets paid more than Mrs. B and then there would be a fight among parents for Mrs. A. Also, Mrs. B may be jealous of Mrs. A and not want to work constructively with her on curriculum planning and particular students they share. Since not all children can get Mrs. A, this system doesn't work.

Mrs. B being jealous of Mrs. A and refusing to work with her is just a good indication that Mrs. B is in the wrong field and needs to leave teaching.

How do people in other professions manage to work with people who earn more or less than they do? Are teachers so petty that it's an impossibility for them to imagine that someone might be better (or have more recognizably better skills in particular areas) or worse (or have fewer recognizably better skills) than they are?

I work in a merit pay based system. It is not "fair" in the sense that everyone would agree about how the merit pay is allocated and judged. But the metrics are understandable, even if they can't possibly cover everything and tend to cover measurable things even when those things aren't the most important aspects of the job. So in that sense it is fair. It's not fair in the sense that everyone would always be judged the same no matter what - different supervisors rate people differently. It's part of life. It's fascinating that teachers find that unfathomable (although early child care workers and university professors seem less befuddled by the concept).

How many other job salaries are tied to how well someone else does at their job? Are doctors graded on how healthy their patients are? That's why merit pay doesn't work. We are grading the students and not the teacher in order to figure out a salary for a teacher. In addition, there are few promotions that a teacher can have so it becomes strange to have all of these merit and longevity pay scales for the same job tasks.

Yeah, merit pay works in some professions--sales, for example--but not in others. Teaching and medicine are two prime examples, as people are not widgets. Teaching is not a factory job where if you just work faster and harder, you turn out more products. There are too many variables outside of the teacher's control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think you need to look more inclusively not just at test scores and progress but by observations, parental survey's and progress of the individual students. You are always going to get a mix of kids and that's part of teaching. At our school, my SN kid is except from testing (which makes no sense when his test scores on the one test he did do was very good). So, they always have loopholes. I'd like to have input into my children's teachers ratings. Teachers who do extra deserve the merit pay... those that work with and other professionals involved with the kids, those who engage parents in the classroom and let parents know what is going on, those who really teach vs. lump kids together based off what is easiest and meet individual kids needs, etc. We've had great teachers where I know what is going on and feel really a part of my child's education and we work together. It makes it better when what we supplement at home is equal or a bit ahead of what is done at school. This year, no parent/teacher conference, I have no idea what is going on in the classroom, teacher will not speak with outside professionals who have worked with my child for years, has her in a reading and math group way below her ability and never corrects work or helps while they are doing it. There are several teachers and aides and a small class size so there is no excuse for what is going on. Teachers like that should not be rewarded. Our principal thinks very highly of the classroom and has no idea what others think.

So, if the teacher puts the child in the group the parent chooses, then she gets more pay? Versus, putting the child in the group she tests into at school?

The teacher is not testing our child well, and that is the issue. Because he has SN, she doesn't understand him. She assumes he does not know it rather than trying to figure out what he knows. We gave her a private assessment to show he is testing in reading and comprehension much higher by an "expert" and she refuses to read it or talk to any of the private therapists who could guide her in what she needs to know. A 10 minute phone call would make a huge difference. Its not about the groups, its about a teacher getting to know your child and meeting their needs. Its about a teacher collaborating with others in the child's best interests. Its about recognizing parental involvement is important and not just when you need it. Our child has been injured at school. As a parent, I'd expect a call, letter or email home as my child cannot always tell me what happened.

We've had great teachers where my child has thrived. I have written letters to everyone from the principal to the school board with many details of why they were great teachers and should be recognized.

Principals are very bias themselves. Ours does not listen to parents at all and is probably the reason this is going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most teachers are pretty good. The top "10%'ers" can go to the privates and can make the big bucks if money is the issue.

The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.

Leadership IS allowed to fire "the bad ones". I've seen it happen several times. They fired tenured teachers.

Tenure doesn't mean that the teacher cannot be fired. It simply means that the principal must have JUST CAUSE to fire him/her. Without it, principals would fire the teacher s/he doesn't like for whatever reason. The one who refuses to take on extra activities, the one who disagrees with him in a meeting, the one who just refuses to kiss his ass.

They need to do a more complete evaluation. We've seen teacher's contracts not renewed as they were not a principal favorite but they were amazing teachers. It goes both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most teachers are pretty good. The top "10%'ers" can go to the privates and can make the big bucks if money is the issue.

The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.

Leadership IS allowed to fire "the bad ones". I've seen it happen several times. They fired tenured teachers.

Tenure doesn't mean that the teacher cannot be fired. It simply means that the principal must have JUST CAUSE to fire him/her. Without it, principals would fire the teacher s/he doesn't like for whatever reason. The one who refuses to take on extra activities, the one who disagrees with him in a meeting, the one who just refuses to kiss his ass.

They need to do a more complete evaluation. We've seen teacher's contracts not renewed as they were not a principal favorite but they were amazing teachers. It goes both ways.

Yup! Which is why you need tenure. Many principals are AWESOME! Some are great! Others lack integrity and spend a lot of time power tripping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most teachers are pretty good. The top "10%'ers" can go to the privates and can make the big bucks if money is the issue.

The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.

Watch out, PP. I suggested that the other day and listed four examples of bad teachers I had known over a number of years of teaching. Teachers who should have not been there. Someone on this thread jumped all over me and denied that there were any poor teachers. Poster said I was a "busybody" for noticing. The poster claimed to be a teacher. I can only guess that it must have been a high school teacher who never left the classroom. Either that, or, perhaps a poor teacher that had been reported by a colleague.

I always have said that merit pay should start with getting rid of rubbish--not the mediocre teachers--but, just the really poor ones.

No one denies there are bad teachers. You just come across as bitchy. Kinda like this response you just posted. I have a feeling you would be part of the rubbish that merit pay gets rid of. But you're too lacking in self-awareness to realize that. The fact that you think the only reason a person could disagree with you is because they're a poor teacher is proof of that. You sound like you need to grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be worried word would get out to parents and teachers that Mrs. A gets paid more than Mrs. B and then there would be a fight among parents for Mrs. A. Also, Mrs. B may be jealous of Mrs. A and not want to work constructively with her on curriculum planning and particular students they share. Since not all children can get Mrs. A, this system doesn't work.

Mrs. B being jealous of Mrs. A and refusing to work with her is just a good indication that Mrs. B is in the wrong field and needs to leave teaching.

How do people in other professions manage to work with people who earn more or less than they do? Are teachers so petty that it's an impossibility for them to imagine that someone might be better (or have more recognizably better skills in particular areas) or worse (or have fewer recognizably better skills) than they are?

I work in a merit pay based system. It is not "fair" in the sense that everyone would agree about how the merit pay is allocated and judged. But the metrics are understandable, even if they can't possibly cover everything and tend to cover measurable things even when those things aren't the most important aspects of the job. So in that sense it is fair. It's not fair in the sense that everyone would always be judged the same no matter what - different supervisors rate people differently. It's part of life. It's fascinating that teachers find that unfathomable (although early child care workers and university professors seem less befuddled by the concept).

How many other job salaries are tied to how well someone else does at their job? Are doctors graded on how healthy their patients are? That's why merit pay doesn't work. We are grading the students and not the teacher in order to figure out a salary for a teacher. In addition, there are few promotions that a teacher can have so it becomes strange to have all of these merit and longevity pay scales for the same job tasks.

Doctors get paid in different ways. But a doctor who can't get patients doesn't get paid. Teachers are protected from that situation, because children are put into their classrooms whether they're competent or not. I can fire my doctor fairly easily. Changing a teacher for my child is basically impossible, in my experience.

Many jobs are judged in part based on how others respond. A salesperson can be a great salesperson, but be selling an atrocious product. Is that their "fault?" Their pay will be dependent on the product, not on their sales ability. Decorators have to make you happy with what they've done. It doesn't matter if you want something horrible looking and they've designed something that's amazing. The guy out swinging the "sale!" sign for the furniture store isn't going to get extra pay for drumming up business if the weather is bad and people aren't stopping, or if the furniture store down the street is having a better sale, or ... any number of things that he has no control over at all.

Do you realize that often there are elements involved that the person has absolutely no control over? There's really not that much special about teachers in that regard? But what is special about teachers is they have a captive audience, it's a lot harder for the people "consuming" a teacher's services to go elsewhere to help motivate the people who hire the teacher to let a bad teacher go or get a bad teacher training to make them a better teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This. It's like apples and oranges. No way to compare how effective a teacher really is when Teacher A has a class full of kids who have stable homes, enough food in their homes and educated, tuned-in parent, and Teacher B has a class full of kids whose basic needs aren't met.

Absolutely. I've taught in both--believe me, I deserved more pay when I was working in the poor school. I also spent more of my own money there--as well as more hours of work.

Teachers in "wealthier" schools don't exactly have it easy. The grass is always greener.

[Anonymous]

No one denies there are bad teachers. You just come across as bitchy. Kinda like this response you just posted. I have a feeling you would be part of the rubbish that merit pay gets rid of. But you're too lacking in self-awareness to realize that. The fact that you think the only reason a person could disagree with you is because they're a poor teacher is proof of that. You sound like you need to grow up.

You, on the other hand, sound like a lovely person.

[Anonymous]

Teachers in "wealthier" schools don't exactly have it easy. The grass is always greener.

I've done both. Different challenges, but, believe me it is easier to teach in a wealthier school. Sure, the parents are pests, but, just try to schedule a meeting with a parent in one of the really, really poor schools. Try teaching where you have two or three kids absent at least once a week because mom couldn't get out of bed. Try teaching kids who think that the only way to play is to hit or push other kids. The kids are loveable and you feel very needed, but it is extremely exhausting. And, now, with everything driven by test scores, it is extremely difficult to teach what they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers in "wealthier" schools don't exactly have it easy. The grass is always greener.

I've done both. Different challenges, but, believe me it is easier to teach in a wealthier school. Sure, the parents are pests, but, just try to schedule a meeting with a parent in one of the really, really poor schools. Try teaching where you have two or three kids absent at least once a week because mom couldn't get out of bed. Try teaching kids who think that the only way to play is to hit or push other kids. The kids are loveable and you feel very needed, but it is extremely exhausting. And, now, with everything driven by test scores, it is extremely difficult to teach what they need.

I don't disagree and I have no doubt you have to deal with those examples, but as you mention each situation has its own challenges and when the discussion is about merit pay the conversation will again turn into one where people are saying, "But I have...and you don't have to....".

For example, the primary teacher with 30 in a class and no assistance could contrast that with smaller classes in a Title I and more support. Or (s)he could point to more conferences, DRA assessments or more grades. Disruptive students can be found in both places.

I'm just saying it's another example where "merit" is difficult to define. Merit pay shouldn't be given based on the FARMs rate of a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers in "wealthier" schools don't exactly have it easy. The grass is always greener.

I've done both. Different challenges, but, believe me it is easier to teach in a wealthier school. Sure, the parents are pests, but, just try to schedule a meeting with a parent in one of the really, really poor schools. Try teaching where you have two or three kids absent at least once a week because mom couldn't get out of bed. Try teaching kids who think that the only way to play is to hit or push other kids. The kids are loveable and you feel very needed, but it is extremely exhausting. And, now, with everything driven by test scores, it is extremely difficult to teach what they need.

One problem with scheduling meetings is they are scheduled in the middle of the work day and many parents work. Our teacher complained my husband did not attend the IEP meetings and I said he worked an hour away and he'd miss the entire day of work. So, they pretend to be flexible and schedule it at 10:30 instead of 1. That means he would not get into work till noon. If you want parent participate you need to be a bit more flexible.

Maybe mom is too exhausted from working overnight. Maybe mom is like me and has health issues that meds are ineffective or or maybe mom can't get to the doctor due to income/cost. Life isn't as simple as you want it to be. There are days if it were not for my husband my kids might miss a day or two because I can't drive them to school (no bus). In the past, one did miss school sometimes due to my health. School was 30 minutes away and if my husband left before I got up and I didn't know the night before, not much we could do about it.

On the other hand, I feel completely excluded from the classroom. I have no idea what goes on and when I ask the teacher refers me to the county website for the general information. I've ask for the name of the workbook she uses for homework assignments. She gave me the wrong one twice. (how hard is it to take a picture and send it). Or, better, why not send a weekly email to the parents letting them know what their kids learned and will learn the following week.