Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, I left the public school system for private. Throwing more money at me wouldn't have kept me there. I would have liked more autonomy, less overall acceptance of mediocrity, and less infighting among my colleagues. Much happier (but not richer) now.

Exactly! DC teachers are the highest paid in the DMV. Every DC teacher will tell you they make LOTS of money-relative to the profession. But teachers leave every that system every single day. The money is not what keeps them, as they don't go into the profession for that in the first place.

It's the politics, student behavior, lack of autonomy, and adult shenanigans--not money--that makes them leave. All of which is the result of poor leadership. Frankly, I think more attention needs to be paid to who's being put in these positions of leadership. Good leaders can hire, retain, groom and grow good teachers--AND other leaders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Do teachers that coach sports get paid for the coaching? I thought they did so I don't understand why team leads and curriculum leads don't.

There are supplemental contracts for coaching positions. Curriculum and team leads do a lot of extra work for no extra pay and I find people avoid those positions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Most parents and I suspect tadmins can agree who the outstanding teachers are and they deserve way more pay. We also need to find a way to provide better remediation for struggling teachers and if the remediation fails there needs to be a way to encourage them exit door left.

I have proposed on DCUM before a multimodal assessment from a variety of levels. You factor in subjective and objective and you get feedback from peers, subordinates (e.g. aides who come into the classroom where applicable), parents and the administrator. Test scores would be a small part of the assessment, maybe 5% of what goes into the equation. Anytime this discussion comes up a raise to all teachers when there are some teachers who clearly deserve to go up 5 steps and some who don't belong in the field. How do we retain the talented teachers and remediate and if needed let go the problematic ones?

To be clear, I am not looking to justify my suggestion for assessment. I have already learned a slew of people find it outrageous. I am looking from solutions from those who are in the system. I would gladly pay more taxes if we could keep and reward talented teachers and have more in place to ensure poor teachers get the help they need so it isn't the same story year after year.

What do you propose?

Are you Crazy Mom who's submitted an FOIA to find out the salary of your child's teacher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, I left the public school system for private. Throwing more money at me wouldn't have kept me there. I would have liked more autonomy, less overall acceptance of mediocrity, and less infighting among my colleagues. Much happier (but not richer) now.

Exactly! DC teachers are the highest paid in the DMV. Every DC teacher will tell you they make LOTS of money-relative to the profession. But teachers leave every that system every single day. The money is not what keeps them, as they don't go into the profession for that in the first place.

It's the politics, student behavior, lack of autonomy, and adult shenanigans--not money--that makes them leave. All of which is the result of poor leadership. Frankly, I think more attention needs to be paid to who's being put in these positions of leadership. Good leaders can hire, retain, groom and grow good teachers--AND other leaders.

[phone]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Agree, we were supposed to have the best teacher and if she's the best, I am missing something. I don't want popular, I want someone who understands my child and can teach well.

Stay in your lane. Do what you need to do at home to support education and all teachers will look like rock stars.

I am not trying to make a marginal teacher look like a rock star. That is their job, not mine. Mine is to make sure my child is getting a good education and treated decently. Ours will not work with us on what she is doing in the classroom when we asked as we do heavily supplement at home. She even told us to stop supplementing. She barely spends time with our child or she'd know his reading and math skills were much higher than she gives him credit for. Except for socialization, school the past few years has been a joke. I'd love just once for a teacher who teachers and has regular group communication with parents to let them know what's going on.

Yup! THAT'S your job. Not regulating teacher pay.

I don't care what my child's teacher makes, in less she were grossly underpaid compared to other teachers and she was planning to leave (but we'd have no issue with her leaving). Its not my job to homeschool my child for what they are not getting in school. Its not my job to teach things that should be taught in class. Its my job to reinforce what the teacher does but I have no idea what the teacher does as she's completely unresponsive. Should we financially reward a teacher who does the bare minimum? Should we financially reward a teacher who skips out on her parent/teacher conferences? It would be nice if bonus pay was tied to teacher performance as seen by parents as teachers might put more effort working together as a team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Agree, we were supposed to have the best teacher and if she's the best, I am missing something. I don't want popular, I want someone who understands my child and can teach well.

Stay in your lane. Do what you need to do at home to support education and all teachers will look like rock stars.

I am not trying to make a marginal teacher look like a rock star. That is their job, not mine. Mine is to make sure my child is getting a good education and treated decently. Ours will not work with us on what she is doing in the classroom when we asked as we do heavily supplement at home. She even told us to stop supplementing. She barely spends time with our child or she'd know his reading and math skills were much higher than she gives him credit for. Except for socialization, school the past few years has been a joke. I'd love just once for a teacher who teachers and has regular group communication with parents to let them know what's going on.

Yup! THAT'S your job. Not regulating teacher pay.

I don't care what my child's teacher makes, in less she were grossly underpaid compared to other teachers and she was planning to leave (but we'd have no issue with her leaving). Its not my job to homeschool my child for what they are not getting in school. Its not my job to teach things that should be taught in class. Its my job to reinforce what the teacher does but I have no idea what the teacher does as she's completely unresponsive. Should we financially reward a teacher who does the bare minimum? Should we financially reward a teacher who skips out on her parent/teacher conferences? It would be nice if bonus pay was tied to teacher performance as seen by parents as teachers might put more effort working together as a team.

Whoa! to the bolded. As seen by parents???? Your sense of entitlement is ridiculous. Leave teacher management to the schools.

2ndly, I think you're in the minority. Most teachers ARE responsive and seek to build that community with parents.

Can't help but wonder if you're "THAT" parent the teachers avoid as much as possible. It is very possible she is VERY responsive to other parents. The ones who are not overbearing.

And just as it's not your job to homeschool, it's not your job to worry about teacher pay. Also, an earned salary is NOT "financially rewarding" someone. She earns her pay like every other professional. You're doing her no favors by having less than 1% of your tax dollars go towards her salary. A salary from which she also pays taxes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Do teachers that coach sports get paid for the coaching? I thought they did so I don't understand why team leads and curriculum leads don't.

There are supplemental contracts for coaching positions. Curriculum and team leads do a lot of extra work for no extra pay and I find people avoid those positions.

In the district where I work middle and high school coaches get stipends. In elementary, there are five stipended team leader positions ($1000/year) but principals expect non-stipended teachers to serve as team leaders as well (special ed, ESOL, specialists etc). If you refuse you're seen as "not doing what's in the best interest of kids".

That term is bandied about a lot in elementary schools to guilt teachers into taking on more and more unpaid responsibilities like running after school clubs, chairing committees and covering classes when subs don't pick up vacancies. The latter is a huge issue in local school systems lately. There are more and more unfilled vacancies and it's cheaper for school systems to leave vacancies unfilled and patchwork together coverage from teachers already in the building vs. paying the daily rate for a sub. Teachers are told they need to provide coverage because "it's in the best interest of kids".
That may be true but school systems and administrators are preying on the compassionate nature of teachers and keep piling more and more extras onto their plates without providing more compensation.

All of this is a way of saying that there may be a way for merit based pay to work in education, but anyone who actually works in education knows that the only constant is that things will constantly be changing. Only so much is actually within your control as a teacher. There are so many variables even from year to year, and humans aren't widgets.

In any event, if we eventually go to a merit based pay system for teachers then it would only be fair to do the same for doctors and other professionals who work directly with people too, right? If a teacher's pay is determined upon the success of their students, but the students are actually under the care of their parents for more time than under the care of the teacher and the teacher can't control what happens outside of school, wouldn't it only make sense for doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals to be paid on how successful their patients are outside of their office as well? If I'm told I have risk factors for disease based on my lifestyle choices but I choose to ignore that, how is it fair for teachers' pay to be based on similar factors outside of their control? Why is this only a discussion for education?

[Anonymous]

OP,

It just won't work. Too many variables. First, you must identify what makes a good teacher--and, that is a very difficult task. FWIW, test scores are not necessarily an indicator. Believe me, I worked much harder in a Title I school than in a more diverse situation--and, the results were much different.

So, what if you do identify the best teacher?--and, frequently, that would be the one who is best buds with the principal--or the one that the parents request because their next door neighbors thought she was great. What happens, then? Who gets the "best" teacher?

Too much politics involved.

Do you know what I wish? I wish that principals would make the effort to get rid of sorry teachers. That always bothered me more than not getting paid enough. You know, the teachers who do not pay attention--the ones who do the absolute minimum-or are just not cut out for the classroom. This could be done right now--but no one wants to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Most parents and I suspect tadmins can agree who the outstanding teachers are and they deserve way more pay. We also need to find a way to provide better remediation for struggling teachers and if the remediation fails there needs to be a way to encourage them exit door left.

I have proposed on DCUM before a multimodal assessment from a variety of levels. You factor in subjective and objective and you get feedback from peers, subordinates (e.g. aides who come into the classroom where applicable), parents and the administrator. Test scores would be a small part of the assessment, maybe 5% of what goes into the equation. Anytime this discussion comes up a raise to all teachers when there are some teachers who clearly deserve to go up 5 steps and some who don't belong in the field. How do we retain the talented teachers and remediate and if needed let go the problematic ones?

To be clear, I am not looking to justify my suggestion for assessment. I have already learned a slew of people find it outrageous. I am looking from solutions from those who are in the system. I would gladly pay more taxes if we could keep and reward talented teachers and have more in place to ensure poor teachers get the help they need so it isn't the same story year after year.

What do you propose?

I propose you get your idioms straight. It's exit STAGE left.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Do teachers that coach sports get paid for the coaching? I thought they did so I don't understand why team leads and curriculum leads don't.

There are supplemental contracts for coaching positions. Curriculum and team leads do a lot of extra work for no extra pay and I find people avoid those positions.

In the district where I work middle and high school coaches get stipends. In elementary, there are five stipended team leader positions ($1000/year) but principals expect non-stipended teachers to serve as team leaders as well (special ed, ESOL, specialists etc). If you refuse you're seen as "not doing what's in the best interest of kids".

I'm in Fairfax County and elementary teachers don't get stipends for serving as team leads. IMO they and curriculum leads should get some extra pay for the extra responsibilities they take on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Most parents and I suspect tadmins can agree who the outstanding teachers are and they deserve way more pay. We also need to find a way to provide better remediation for struggling teachers and if the remediation fails there needs to be a way to encourage them exit door left.

I have proposed on DCUM before a multimodal assessment from a variety of levels. You factor in subjective and objective and you get feedback from peers, subordinates (e.g. aides who come into the classroom where applicable), parents and the administrator. Test scores would be a small part of the assessment, maybe 5% of what goes into the equation. Anytime this discussion comes up a raise to all teachers when there are some teachers who clearly deserve to go up 5 steps and some who don't belong in the field. How do we retain the talented teachers and remediate and if needed let go the problematic ones?

To be clear, I am not looking to justify my suggestion for assessment. I have already learned a slew of people find it outrageous. I am looking from solutions from those who are in the system. I would gladly pay more taxes if we could keep and reward talented teachers and have more in place to ensure poor teachers get the help they need so it isn't the same story year after year.

What do you propose?

Are you Crazy Mom who's submitted an FOIA to find out the salary of your child's teacher?

I bet she is...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My wife and I teach in elementary schools. Some of the most popular teachers are not necessarily the best in our eyes, so we would have to examine the suggestion of input from peers and parents.

Pay a stipend to those who take on extra duties such as team lead or curriculum lead positions.

Agree, we were supposed to have the best teacher and if she's the best, I am missing something. I don't want popular, I want someone who understands my child and can teach well.

Stay in your lane. Do what you need to do at home to support education and all teachers will look like rock stars.

I am not trying to make a marginal teacher look like a rock star. That is their job, not mine. Mine is to make sure my child is getting a good education and treated decently. Ours will not work with us on what she is doing in the classroom when we asked as we do heavily supplement at home. She even told us to stop supplementing. She barely spends time with our child or she'd know his reading and math skills were much higher than she gives him credit for. Except for socialization, school the past few years has been a joke. I'd love just once for a teacher who teachers and has regular group communication with parents to let them know what's going on.

Yup! THAT'S your job. Not regulating teacher pay.

I don't care what my child's teacher makes, in less she were grossly underpaid compared to other teachers and she was planning to leave (but we'd have no issue with her leaving). Its not my job to homeschool my child for what they are not getting in school. Its not my job to teach things that should be taught in class. Its my job to reinforce what the teacher does but I have no idea what the teacher does as she's completely unresponsive. Should we financially reward a teacher who does the bare minimum? Should we financially reward a teacher who skips out on her parent/teacher conferences? It would be nice if bonus pay was tied to teacher performance as seen by parents as teachers might put more effort working together as a team.

Whoa! to the bolded. As seen by parents???? Your sense of entitlement is ridiculous. Leave teacher management to the schools.

2ndly, I think you're in the minority. Most teachers ARE responsive and seek to build that community with parents.

Can't help but wonder if you're "THAT" parent the teachers avoid as much as possible. It is very possible she is VERY responsive to other parents. The ones who are not overbearing.

And just as it's not your job to homeschool, it's not your job to worry about teacher pay. Also, an earned salary is NOT "financially rewarding" someone. She earns her pay like every other professional. You're doing her no favors by having less than 1% of your tax dollars go towards her salary. A salary from which she also pays taxes.

Schools should encourage parent feedback to improve their schools and children's experiences. We pay a teacher's salary with our tax dollars. Teachers earn a reasonable salary in comparison to equal government jobs, only they often get better benefits and work hours/conditions. The teacher we have is not responsive to any parent from the ones I have talked to. Most parents are checked out and don't care but we do. We should not have to supplement at home like we do.

[Anonymous]

With the focus on collaboration among teachers, having them compete for rewards would discourage sharing ideas.

[Anonymous]

It's the politics, student behavior, lack of autonomy, and adult shenanigans--not money--that makes them leave. All of which is the result of poor leadership. Frankly, I think more attention needs to be paid to who's being put in these positions of leadership. Good leaders can hire, retain, groom and grow good teachers--AND other leaders.

This! It's a failure of leadership training. Admins are overwhelmed and underprepared. If your school has a retention issue with good teachers, take a look at the principal first.

[Anonymous]

Most parents and I suspect tadmins can agree who the outstanding teachers are and they deserve way more pay.

So, you have taken a scientific survey? Well, I suspect you would be wrong. You are assuming that the administrators know what is going on........Have all of your employers known your skills and known who the best employees were? Doubtful.