White working class acting against their own interests?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most middle class folk, with or without degrees, blue collar, white, and grey, all know we will never receive any freebies from any democrat program unless we have HHI at or below poverty. So, our best bet is on a guy who has a greater likelihood of improving job opportunities overall.

But that's not the case. Republicans have consistently failed to deliver on improved job opportunities. They are also the ones who have promoted "trickle down economics" going back to the Reagan era - where nothing ever trickles down - it has meant that wages for the working class have remained stagnant since the 1980s when adjusted for inflation, even as worker productivity and output have consistently gone up, even as corporate profits have consistently gone up. It's all being skimmed off of the top, with the richest people getting richer and not sharing the wealth with those who made it happen.

Again, no democrat program will EVER "share wealth" with my middle class family. E-V-E-R. Ok? Not happening. Total fail bye.

Secondly, in case you read twitter and facebook for your news, theres this stuff called outsourcing, H1-Bs, illegal immigrant labor, and relocation of manufacturing to china, mexico, etc. This ABSOLUTELY eliminates jobs for American workers. All of it.

Finally, remind me again what obama did to create jobs? Im drawing a blank. Oh, NOTHING.

Why does the gov't or President have to create jobs for people? Isn't that relying on gov't, the very thing supposedly a lot of Trump supporters don't like?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most middle class folk, with or without degrees, blue collar, white, and grey, all know we will never receive any freebies from any democrat program unless we have HHI at or below poverty. So, our best bet is on a guy who has a greater likelihood of improving job opportunities overall.

But that's not the case. Republicans have consistently failed to deliver on improved job opportunities. They are also the ones who have promoted "trickle down economics" going back to the Reagan era - where nothing ever trickles down - it has meant that wages for the working class have remained stagnant since the 1980s when adjusted for inflation, even as worker productivity and output have consistently gone up, even as corporate profits have consistently gone up. It's all being skimmed off of the top, with the richest people getting richer and not sharing the wealth with those who made it happen.

Again, no democrat program will EVER "share wealth" with my middle class family. E-V-E-R. Ok? Not happening. Total fail bye.

Secondly, in case you read twitter and facebook for your news, theres this stuff called outsourcing, H1-Bs, illegal immigrant labor, and relocation of manufacturing to china, mexico, etc. This ABSOLUTELY eliminates jobs for American workers. All of it.

Finally, remind me again what obama did to create jobs? Im drawing a blank. Oh, NOTHING.

Lol, you forgot about things like Social Security. Major fail on your part.

As for outsourcing, got news for you - if you think Trump is going to magically end outsourcing or H1-Bs, you are delusional. And if you are so desperate to get rid of the illegals then get ready to start paying $10 for that burger because guess who's been the kitchen staff all these years. Plus, he will quite likely kill a ton of American jobs if he tries starting a trade war with protectionist policies and by killing trade partnerships, because it will kill our own exports. You know what else has been killing jobs? The free market. There's no "war on coal" nor even any need for it, the number one thing killing the coal industry hasn't been big evil gubmint regulation, it's been competition from the natural gas industry, along with a lot of the remaining mining jobs being killed due to automation and large scale mechanized operations like mountaintop removal. Regulation is just the nail in the coffin to an industry that was already one foot in the grave. But meanwhile people like you ignore the fact that outside of natural gas, the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector are in manufacturing and installing solar and wind. If those miners want a job they should go to where the industry has gone rather than sitting on their asses whining. Times change. We don't have switchboard operators anymore. We don't have livery stables in every town anymore. Move on, get with the times.

As for Obama creating jobs, he's been adding on average of over 200,000 jobs a month every single month since he's been in office - as compared to George W. Bush, who was LOSING 800,000 jobs a month at the end of his term. Fact is, unemployment dropped below 5% for January and February of this year. But to hear the delusional narrative on FOX News and right wing talk radio you'd think the exact opposite were the case. When you go around making such fundamentally fact-challenged comments about unemployment it pretty much invalidates everything else you have to say.

[Anonymous]

Wwc's are dying out - literally. Silly peoples.

[Anonymous]

I just want to be left alone

I had a fine insurance program for 100 bucks a month

Now I have to pay 300 with a higher deductible

Thanks Obama

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a great question and has perplexed me forever. Why would anyone who is middle class or poor and in danger of losing a job or health care vote for the Trump. A rich guy who has gotten there on the backs of these very people, who will never think about them and only themselves. It is like they believe if they just get a guy in office that looks like them they will be just fine. Someone explain how people consistently vote against their own pay checks and families. Is it fear? Is it hatred? Who does this?

It’s quite simple, really.
Many of us in the middle class realize that the more “power” we give to the government in taking care of us, the more freedoms we lose as a result.
Like the ACA - we essentially handed over the power to the government to mandate health insurance for all, and in turn, gave up our freedom to choose what plan suits us and our families. Don’t need birth control? Too bad, you’ve got it. And, you don’t have young kids who need dental coverage? So sorry, pal, you get it anyway.
So, simply put, we value freedom more than we value “free things.”

? If you don't have young kids why are you getting coverage for young kids? And if you do have young kids, you do need some kind of dental coverage. That's crazy to think you don't.

Hey, I hate that we have such easy access to guns, but sorry, pal, we get it anyways.

See, this is my problem with those people who are so gung-ho about the ACA.
Pediatric dental coverage is REQUIRED for all ACA-compliant plans - whether you have children or not.
Guess you didn’t know that. Makes me wonder what else you don’t know about it.

Dental insurance, for the most part, isn’t covered under ObamaCare (the Affordable Care Act). However, children’s dental coverage is a required benefit included on all ACA compliant plans and cost assistance can be applied to any Marketplace plan that includes dental.

http://obamacarefacts.com/dental-insurance/dental-insurance/

Yes, but if you don't have children on your plan you don't get pediatric dental. Get it now?

I don't understand why this discussion of ACA is in this thread. It should be a thread all its own.

I'd like to point out, though, that you are still paying for pediatric dental, even if you don't have children. You just aren't getting the benefit. The point people are saying is that because ACA plans have to include those things, they can't discount their plans for people who don't want that coverage. So if you are a man and get an ACA-compliant plan, the plan still includes pregnancy coverage, birth control, et cetera. You don't get a cheaper rate, even though you won't use those benefits because they are standard features of the plan.

That's the point you are missing. The upside is that those features don't cost more if you do need them. For example, pre-ACA, a woman purchasing a plan on the open market would have to pay more for the pregnancy coverage. Now, she doesn't have to because it is standard. But the unintended consequence is that everyone pays more. It's not like the insurance companies just take a hit. The cost is just spread around.

Where I differ with the people who are complaining about ACA is that I think singlepayer is a better option because it takes some of the power out of the hands of insurance companies, which are for-profit entities.

No, if you don't coverage for minors, you are not paying that premium. You pay for yourself or yourself and spouse. Therefore you are not paying for pediatric dental.

Now, pregnancy coverage is another matter. Non-pregnant people do pay for this.

However, in both cases requiring that plans have this is a benefit to society.

You simply don't get to choose what you want coverage for . . . you can't say, not traveling to Africa, no yellow fever coverage for me this year! I'll take cancer coverage, but no diabetes, please.

Insurance is not now nor has it ever been a cafeteria where you can pick and choose precisely what you will be covered for. It is an actuarial risk management pool and if if something is found in the pool, its covered.

If it really bothers you that pregnancy is covered, lobby for gender based risk pools. You will be surprised when you have opted out of pregnancy and find your rates going up because you have eliminated the healthier half of the pool. Yes. Women are healthier. Do you hear them complaining about paying higher rates because they have to cover the risks associated with men's stupid tendency not to seek prophylactic health care?

You are wrong. Employers pre-ACA were able to pick and choose what coverage and what exclusions their plans would offer. Private insurance also offered options. In my 20s, I had a 6-month gap between employer-provided plans. I purchased a barebones health insurance plan in the private market. I didn't need pregnancy coverage, so I picked a cheaper plan that didn't offer pregnancy coverage.

Those options don't exist now because of ACA.

I'm not saying that is definitely a bad thing. I'm actually for singlepayer. I never said that it bothered me that pregnancy is covered. I'm just stating the facts that in the private market, that was often an extra rider you needed to purchase. You can argue that's better or worse, but you can't argue the fact that that is how it was.

People were upset because they knew with ACA the barebones health insurance (cheaper) options would be phased out because now all plans have to offer certain types of coverage. Some people liked having the option of purchasing cheaper barebones coverage.

I think that where ACA fails is it tries to be too many things. It mandates coverage on the part of insurance coverage and mandates that people purchase coverage but it also tries to pretend that it still gives choice and it's still a "market." The result is that it fixes some problems but does so at the expense of taking away choices from people while at the same time giving the insurance companies more power and still retain the ability to recoup their profits in other ways (i.e., increasing all rates to make up for the coverage like pediatric dental and pregancy coverage that all plans are supposed to include).

That's one of the biggest failures of pre-ACA healthcare - that people would either not have any coverage at all, or would pick a bare bones plan that ended up not covering anything at all when they got sick or injured. Pre-ACA, lack of healthcare coverage has been one of the biggest sources of personal bankruptcy in America. There is already plenty of economic evidence to prove that the kind of overconfidence/arrogance/ignorance of not getting insurance or getting a bare bones plan will quite likely come back to bite you in the ass.

Actually, a large percentage of people who go into bankruptcy due to health issues have insurance. And, no, it is not young people who had basic insurance.

I didn't argue that pretty aca was better. I said it simply isn't true that you couldn't opt out of certain coverage.

And by the way, the plan I bought didn't cover pregnancy, but it covered other emergency and unexpected health issues. What made it barebones is the lack of pregnancy coverage and that it still had high copay for a lot of preventative stuff that I didn't need and would not have used anyway at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most middle class folk, with or without degrees, blue collar, white, and grey, all know we will never receive any freebies from any democrat program unless we have HHI at or below poverty. So, our best bet is on a guy who has a greater likelihood of improving job opportunities overall.

But that's not the case. Republicans have consistently failed to deliver on improved job opportunities. They are also the ones who have promoted "trickle down economics" going back to the Reagan era - where nothing ever trickles down - it has meant that wages for the working class have remained stagnant since the 1980s when adjusted for inflation, even as worker productivity and output have consistently gone up, even as corporate profits have consistently gone up. It's all being skimmed off of the top, with the richest people getting richer and not sharing the wealth with those who made it happen.

Again, no democrat program will EVER "share wealth" with my middle class family. E-V-E-R. Ok? Not happening. Total fail bye.

Secondly, in case you read twitter and facebook for your news, theres this stuff called outsourcing, H1-Bs, illegal immigrant labor, and relocation of manufacturing to china, mexico, etc. This ABSOLUTELY eliminates jobs for American workers. All of it.

Finally, remind me again what obama did to create jobs? Im drawing a blank. Oh, NOTHING.

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act did a lot and probably could have done more if Republicans weren't so scared shitless of recovery and reinvestment.

There also would have been a lot of jobs coming out of the infrastructure projects Obama went begging for again and again. And the Republicans response to that was what? Oh right, vote again to repeal ACA and shut down the government. That really did help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just want to be left alone

I had a fine insurance program for 100 bucks a month

Now I have to pay 300 with a higher deductible

Thanks Obama

I now can get private insurance and be self employed. Thanks Obama, and I didn't even vote for you!

[Anonymous]

As for outsourcing, got news for you - if you think Trump is going to magically end outsourcing or H1-Bs, you are delusional. And if you are so desperate to get rid of the illegals then get ready to start paying $10 for that burger because guess who's been the kitchen staff all these years. Plus, he will quite likely kill a ton of American jobs if he tries starting a trade war with protectionist policies and by killing trade partnerships, because it will kill our own exports. You know what else has been killing jobs? The free market. There's no "war on coal" nor even any need for it, the number one thing killing the coal industry hasn't been big evil gubmint regulation, it's been competition from the natural gas industry, along with a lot of the remaining mining jobs being killed due to automation and large scale mechanized operations like mountaintop removal. Regulation is just the nail in the coffin to an industry that was already one foot in the grave. But meanwhile people like you ignore the fact that outside of natural gas, the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector are in manufacturing and installing solar and wind. If those miners want a job they should go to where the industry has gone rather than sitting on their asses whining. Times change. We don't have switchboard operators anymore. We don't have livery stables in every town anymore. Move on, get with the times.

This has always been puzzling to me. Why would anyone prefer to go down into a hole every day, risking death in the short term and chronic illness in the long term, instead of pushing for jobs above ground in the air and sunshine?

[Anonymous]

This has always been puzzling to me. Why would anyone prefer to go down into a hole every day, risking death in the short term and chronic illness in the long term, instead of pushing for jobs above ground in the air and sunshine?

Because there are no jobs for them in the air and sunshine.......and, they would rather work than go on the dole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As for outsourcing, got news for you - if you think Trump is going to magically end outsourcing or H1-Bs, you are delusional. And if you are so desperate to get rid of the illegals then get ready to start paying $10 for that burger because guess who's been the kitchen staff all these years. Plus, he will quite likely kill a ton of American jobs if he tries starting a trade war with protectionist policies and by killing trade partnerships, because it will kill our own exports. You know what else has been killing jobs? The free market. There's no "war on coal" nor even any need for it, the number one thing killing the coal industry hasn't been big evil gubmint regulation, it's been competition from the natural gas industry, along with a lot of the remaining mining jobs being killed due to automation and large scale mechanized operations like mountaintop removal. Regulation is just the nail in the coffin to an industry that was already one foot in the grave. But meanwhile people like you ignore the fact that outside of natural gas, the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector are in manufacturing and installing solar and wind. If those miners want a job they should go to where the industry has gone rather than sitting on their asses whining. Times change. We don't have switchboard operators anymore. We don't have livery stables in every town anymore. Move on, get with the times.

This has always been puzzling to me. Why would anyone prefer to go down into a hole every day, risking death in the short term and chronic illness in the long term, instead of pushing for jobs above ground in the air and sunshine?

Because, while they are nice people, they are not that intelligent, and are afraid that they might not be able to learn the new skills. Especially since some of them are old. Have you never been afraid of failure? Most of us know that we are lucky to find a spot once. The chance of that happening again is small, especially as we get older. Look at all the middle age people who had to "retire early" after 2008. Changing careers is not at all easy, especially when you are old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As for outsourcing, got news for you - if you think Trump is going to magically end outsourcing or H1-Bs, you are delusional. And if you are so desperate to get rid of the illegals then get ready to start paying $10 for that burger because guess who's been the kitchen staff all these years. Plus, he will quite likely kill a ton of American jobs if he tries starting a trade war with protectionist policies and by killing trade partnerships, because it will kill our own exports. You know what else has been killing jobs? The free market. There's no "war on coal" nor even any need for it, the number one thing killing the coal industry hasn't been big evil gubmint regulation, it's been competition from the natural gas industry, along with a lot of the remaining mining jobs being killed due to automation and large scale mechanized operations like mountaintop removal. Regulation is just the nail in the coffin to an industry that was already one foot in the grave. But meanwhile people like you ignore the fact that outside of natural gas, the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector are in manufacturing and installing solar and wind. If those miners want a job they should go to where the industry has gone rather than sitting on their asses whining. Times change. We don't have switchboard operators anymore. We don't have livery stables in every town anymore. Move on, get with the times.

This has always been puzzling to me. Why would anyone prefer to go down into a hole every day, risking death in the short term and chronic illness in the long term, instead of pushing for jobs above ground in the air and sunshine?

Because, while they are nice people, they are not that intelligent, and are afraid that they might not be able to learn the new skills. Especially since some of them are old. Have you never been afraid of failure? Most of us know that we are lucky to find a spot once. The chance of that happening again is small, especially as we get older. Look at all the middle age people who had to "retire early" after 2008. Changing careers is not at all easy, especially when you are old.

How about the reality? Moving is a tremendous expense. While being retained as a solar manufacturing employee or an installer what do you live on? How do you afford to pick up your family and move? And what about the fact that they may not look forward to leaving their more extended family and community.

While solar and wind may be booming, is that boom happening in the hills of West Virginia, Kentucky and Pennsylvania? Maybe that should be the key, no solar/wind R&D or other tax incentives unless you set up in the area that is being displaced. Oh. But the engineers and business guys and management of those companies don't want to move either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As for outsourcing, got news for you - if you think Trump is going to magically end outsourcing or H1-Bs, you are delusional. And if you are so desperate to get rid of the illegals then get ready to start paying $10 for that burger because guess who's been the kitchen staff all these years. Plus, he will quite likely kill a ton of American jobs if he tries starting a trade war with protectionist policies and by killing trade partnerships, because it will kill our own exports. You know what else has been killing jobs? The free market. There's no "war on coal" nor even any need for it, the number one thing killing the coal industry hasn't been big evil gubmint regulation, it's been competition from the natural gas industry, along with a lot of the remaining mining jobs being killed due to automation and large scale mechanized operations like mountaintop removal. Regulation is just the nail in the coffin to an industry that was already one foot in the grave. But meanwhile people like you ignore the fact that outside of natural gas, the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector are in manufacturing and installing solar and wind. If those miners want a job they should go to where the industry has gone rather than sitting on their asses whining. Times change. We don't have switchboard operators anymore. We don't have livery stables in every town anymore. Move on, get with the times.

This has always been puzzling to me. Why would anyone prefer to go down into a hole every day, risking death in the short term and chronic illness in the long term, instead of pushing for jobs above ground in the air and sunshine?

Because, while they are nice people, they are not that intelligent, and are afraid that they might not be able to learn the new skills. Especially since some of them are old. Have you never been afraid of failure? Most of us know that we are lucky to find a spot once. The chance of that happening again is small, especially as we get older. Look at all the middle age people who had to "retire early" after 2008. Changing careers is not at all easy, especially when you are old.

Spoken like a true pompous 20-something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How about the reality? Moving is a tremendous expense. While being retained as a solar manufacturing employee or an installer what do you live on? How do you afford to pick up your family and move? And what about the fact that they may not look forward to leaving their more extended family and community.

While solar and wind may be booming, is that boom happening in the hills of West Virginia, Kentucky and Pennsylvania? Maybe that should be the key, no solar/wind R&D or other tax incentives unless you set up in the area that is being displaced. Oh. But the engineers and business guys and management of those companies don't want to move either.

It is expensive, but people do it. All throughout history, people have moved to where the jobs are. Some are willing to travel thousands of miles, leaving their extended families, over oceans and go to countries that speak a different language and have different cultures just to find jobs. Even Trump's mother did it (she immigrated from Scotland as a maid). If people can do this, then I would think someone from WV could move to... IDK, VA, MD.. not too far to find a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to be left alone

I had a fine insurance program for 100 bucks a month

Now I have to pay 300 with a higher deductible

Thanks Obama

I now can get private insurance and be self employed. Thanks Obama, and I didn't even vote for you!

+1000

I paid through the nose for insurance when I ran my own business 10 years ago. It would be much cheaper today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just want to be left alone

I had a fine insurance program for 100 bucks a month

Now I have to pay 300 with a higher deductible

Thanks Obama

Hate to break it to you but.if you were only paying a hundred bucks your plan was probably a scam that didn't actually cover anything.

Either that or that was just your tiny portion of coverage that your employer was paying the lion's share on.