Why wouldn't you pick immersion?

[Anonymous]

So did everyone who thinks immersion is the most important thing ever put schools like DC Bilingual and Bruce Monroe on their lottery lists? Why or why not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So did everyone who thinks immersion is the most important thing ever put schools like DC Bilingual and Bruce Monroe on their lottery lists? Why or why not?

First off, not sure I've ever seen anyone say "immersion is THE most important thing". Not in this thread, not anywhere. I have yet to meet a parent committed to bilingualism who isn't also concerned with the core subjects, how well they're taught, and whether the school seems like a decent school.

That said, to answer your specific question, the first year we applied, no we didn't put either down. I checked out DC Bilingual and had 3 negative experiences, 1 at the school, 2 at school expos, where the staff and particularly the principal were very dismissive. That did it for me, wasn't even faintly interested in applying. Ended up at an Appletree that year (it was for PS3) and couldn't have been happier (and obviously that's not bilingual at all).

Same year Bruce Monroe was undergoing construction. I called to ask some questions (this was the end of the prior school year and I was checking schools out for late application since we moved here after the lottery that year). I NEVER got a live person on the phone. I went to the school right after school ended, but when school staff were still around. Found staff and people willing to answer questions at every other school I went to (even if they were a bit grumpy or dismissive, like at DC Bilingual), but no one even answered the door at BM. Honestly that inability to find anyone to answer a phone or the door over a 2 week period of calling them made me not think of them. They were our IB school, so we wanted to check them out. Never went once school started, because we figured if we have to go there, we'd just check it out then, but the lack of people responding to the phone was a big flag for us.

Didn't BM have a new principal this past year, or are they getting one next year? I wish them luck, I wonder how it's going there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So did everyone who thinks immersion is the most important thing ever put schools like DC Bilingual and Bruce Monroe on their lottery lists? Why or why not?

First off, not sure I've ever seen anyone say "immersion is THE most important thing". Not in this thread, not anywhere. I have yet to meet a parent committed to bilingualism who isn't also concerned with the core subjects, how well they're taught, and whether the school seems like a decent school.

That said, to answer your specific question, the first year we applied, no we didn't put either down. I checked out DC Bilingual and had 3 negative experiences, 1 at the school, 2 at school expos, where the staff and particularly the principal were very dismissive. That did it for me, wasn't even faintly interested in applying. Ended up at an Appletree that year (it was for PS3) and couldn't have been happier (and obviously that's not bilingual at all).

Same year Bruce Monroe was undergoing construction. I called to ask some questions (this was the end of the prior school year and I was checking schools out for late application since we moved here after the lottery that year). I NEVER got a live person on the phone. I went to the school right after school ended, but when school staff were still around. Found staff and people willing to answer questions at every other school I went to (even if they were a bit grumpy or dismissive, like at DC Bilingual), but no one even answered the door at BM. Honestly that inability to find anyone to answer a phone or the door over a 2 week period of calling them made me not think of them. They were our IB school, so we wanted to check them out. Never went once school started, because we figured if we have to go there, we'd just check it out then, but the lack of people responding to the phone was a big flag for us.

Didn't BM have a new principal this past year, or are they getting one next year? I wish them luck, I wonder how it's going there.

Same PP, but we did put Powell, Marie Reed, and Cleveland on our list that same year. Didn't get into any of them (crappy DCPS lottery number that year). Would have jumped on Powell, had such a good experience when we visited there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So did everyone who thinks immersion is the most important thing ever put schools like DC Bilingual and Bruce Monroe on their lottery lists? Why or why not?

First off, not sure I've ever seen anyone say "immersion is THE most important thing". Not in this thread, not anywhere. I have yet to meet a parent committed to bilingualism who isn't also concerned with the core subjects, how well they're taught, and whether the school seems like a decent school.

That said, to answer your specific question, the first year we applied, no we didn't put either down. I checked out DC Bilingual and had 3 negative experiences, 1 at the school, 2 at school expos, where the staff and particularly the principal were very dismissive.

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience at DC Bilingual. Our child is just finishing his 1st year at DCB (because we put it on our lottery lists) and we've had a great time. The school and curriculum are very academic, the staff very warm and nurturing and the fellow students and families have been great. We speak English at home, and the Spanish I do know is mostly from work where it was invaluable. I agree that immersion is not the most important thing, but as for DCB: I am not concerned about bow the core subjects are taught because I see it in the homework every week, I am very happy with how quickly my child is learning both the core subjects and Spanish, and the school is not only a decent school, it's a gem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So did everyone who thinks immersion is the most important thing ever put schools like DC Bilingual and Bruce Monroe on their lottery lists? Why or why not?

First off, not sure I've ever seen anyone say "immersion is THE most important thing". Not in this thread, not anywhere. I have yet to meet a parent committed to bilingualism who isn't also concerned with the core subjects, how well they're taught, and whether the school seems like a decent school.

That said, to answer your specific question, the first year we applied, no we didn't put either down. I checked out DC Bilingual and had 3 negative experiences, 1 at the school, 2 at school expos, where the staff and particularly the principal were very dismissive.

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience at DC Bilingual. Our child is just finishing his 1st year at DCB (because we put it on our lottery lists) and we've had a great time. The school and curriculum are very academic, the staff very warm and nurturing and the fellow students and families have been great. We speak English at home, and the Spanish I do know is mostly from work where it was invaluable. I agree that immersion is not the most important thing, but as for DCB: I am not concerned about bow the core subjects are taught because I see it in the homework every week, I am very happy with how quickly my child is learning both the core subjects and Spanish, and the school is not only a decent school, it's a gem.

That's cool, I'm very glad you are happy. We need more parents in DC happy with their kids' school!

Just to be clear, my issues with DCB were not concerns about core subjects. I didn't even get that far, because of how cold I found the principal and staff. But again, I think it's great if you're having a different experience. For me, if it was only 1 experience, I'd not have been so turned off. But it was 3 different ones, including 2 with the principal (and a couple other staff).

At the end of the day we ended up somewhere we love, so we're good, and I'm glad you're good too. The more satisfied parents, the merrier!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, do you use the Hope school or some other outside source to assist you in Chinese language instruction, or do you do it all yourself? We are interested in YY and don't live near a JKLM or comparable school, but if we don't get a slot, we'd like to know what others like you are doing to teach Mandarin anyway.

I can't imagine raising a child who speaks both Chinese and English well without being native speakers receiving lots of help from the extended family. We haven't been impressed with the Chinese of the older YY kids we speak Mandarin with, other than those whose families have hosted Chinese au pairs for years. We have headed to the same Rockville Sunday afternoon program (3 Hours) since our kids were 3 years old. All the students are from Immigrant families. Can't beat it. YY Seems pretty cruise by comparison, the emphasis being on inclusion/diversity vs, high standards. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, do you use the Hope school or some other outside source to assist you in Chinese language instruction, or do you do it all yourself? We are interested in YY and don't live near a JKLM or comparable school, but if we don't get a slot, we'd like to know what others like you are doing to teach Mandarin anyway.

I can't imagine raising a child who speaks both Chinese and English well without being native speakers receiving lots of help from the extended family. We haven't been impressed with the Chinese of the older YY kids we speak Mandarin with, other than those whose families have hosted Chinese au pairs for years. We have headed to the same Rockville Sunday afternoon program (3 Hours) since our kids were 3 years old. All the students are from Immigrant families. Can't beat it. YY Seems pretty cruise by comparison, the emphasis being on inclusion/diversity vs, high standards. Good luck.

Interesting that you can't imagine it. I can't imagine a child who spends all of their PS/PK years learning nothing but Mandarin, then their entire school career from K - 5th grade learning literally half of their classwork in Mandarin NOT learning an astonishing amount. I don't really know what non-native Chinese parents expect their kids to pass as natives in the way they speak Mandarin, but I do know an entire school-ful of parents who know that their kids will graduate reading, speaking, and understanding a tremendous amount, hopefully on grade-level and beyond, and that in and of itself is amazing.

To say YY has an emphasis on "inclusion and diversity vs. high standards" when it's a public charter school that gets its students through a lottery is the most ridiculous and uninformed comment I've read about YY in ages. You don't understand a lot of things about the school, it's mission, what it seeks to achieve, or it's population, yet you are passing whole busloads of judgement on it. I guess in the end all is right in the world, because you don't like it and your kids don't go. We love it and feel incredibly lucky that our kids do go. Win-win, good note to end Mother's Day on!

[Anonymous]

Love Cleveland-- thanks for the shoutout by another PP halfway through this thread. We are lucky bc we walk to school (bought in Shaw 10 years ago and heard of Cleveland soon after). Our child in kindergartener is learning a ton-- not just Spanish, but math (rigorous a la common core, hallelujah), ART ( best art program in the city), music, etc. she reads in english well-- above grade level, but granted no prodigy in that. She's friends with children of many backgrounds, and aferschool is FREE, as are meals and snacks. If we had not gotten into Cleveland, it would be moving WOTP and to a great neighborhood svhool. But we could not afford a better house there. Do thebest with what you get and supplement on the side!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably in the vast minority here, but I see school being as much, if not more, about worldview-building and character development than about equipping with academic or social skills. If DC were not in immersion for a specific, desired language, would probably be homeschooled.

isn't "worldview-building and character development" gained by being exposed to different people outside of your control? It's funny that I generally agree with the first part of your statement yet think SCHOOL is the better place to gain that perspective than home schooling, learning to get along with others and negotiate needs independently. Many homeschoolers are vaccine nuts or hyper religious, which isn't the worldview I'd ever want.

sounds like you'd be disappointed if your DC ended up being a vaccine nut or hyper religious (not having the worldview you'd ever want). sounds like, instead, you'd exert the control you do have to put your DC in an environment that would cultivate your own worldview (guessing acceptance, compassion, social justice). we might differ in our opinion of what kind of exposure and at what stage of development, but you and I are not so different from each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Employer of lawn service here. Point out in my post where I said the guy who cuts my grass is a "loser" or that I "think he is" a loser. Or even implied that.

Here's what I do think: I think he and the millions of bilingual people living in the US aren't necessarily geniuses with massive advantages over monolingual people in the US.

This contradicts the Kool-Aid fueled mantra of many young white DC parents who like to post on DCUM. That is all.

Research shows that, all things being equal, bilingual education has brain development and other academic benefits. Your comparison is bogus since you are comparing against a population that had worse education and several other disadvantages from the start.

Can you cite some of this research?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably in the vast minority here, but I see school being as much, if not more, about worldview-building and character development than about equipping with academic or social skills. If DC were not in immersion for a specific, desired language, would probably be homeschooled.

isn't "worldview-building and character development" gained by being exposed to different people outside of your control? It's funny that I generally agree with the first part of your statement yet think SCHOOL is the better place to gain that perspective than home schooling, learning to get along with others and negotiate needs independently. Many homeschoolers are vaccine nuts or hyper religious, which isn't the worldview I'd ever want.

sounds like you'd be disappointed if your DC ended up being a vaccine nut or hyper religious (not having the worldview you'd ever want). sounds like, instead, you'd exert the control you do have to put your DC in an environment that would cultivate your own worldview (guessing acceptance, compassion, social justice). we might differ in our opinion of what kind of exposure and at what stage of development, but you and I are not so different from each other.

I'd be disappointed if my kids joined a cult or the GOP, but would continue to love them the same. You don't know me at all -- don't read my head.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Employer of lawn service here. Point out in my post where I said the guy who cuts my grass is a "loser" or that I "think he is" a loser. Or even implied that.

Here's what I do think: I think he and the millions of bilingual people living in the US aren't necessarily geniuses with massive advantages over monolingual people in the US.

This contradicts the Kool-Aid fueled mantra of many young white DC parents who like to post on DCUM. That is all.

Research shows that, all things being equal, bilingual education has brain development and other academic benefits. Your comparison is bogus since you are comparing against a population that had worse education and several other disadvantages from the start.

Can you cite some of this research?

I don't think that anyone is hypothesizing that bilingualism is associate with being a genius or provides massive advantages. Here's one article: http://www.neurology.org/content/early/2013/11/06/01.wnl.0000436620.33155.a4

While the researchers accounted for possible confounding variables (such as educational level and occupation), it was a retrospective case study so it is not able to demonstrate causality. While it is not enough for me to prioritize immersion above all else, it's an intriguing study: the delay in dementia was found in Alzheimer disease dementia as well as frontotemporal dementia and vascular dementia, and was also observed in illiterate patients (the study was done in India). There was no additional benefit to speaking more than 2 language which is consistent with the theory that it's the practice of speaking in more than one language rather than the learning of additional languages that may be the protective factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people pick immersion because they like the idea of being able to say, "My kid speaks two languages!" It makes their kids sound smarter than your kid .

Do people think that? My maid speaks 2 languages and didn't graduate high school my FIL has 2 PHDs and is monolingual.

I always think this in my head when I see the "monolingual is the new stupid" mantra reposted on DCUM by the kook-aid drinkers.

The guy who cuts my grass in 96 degree weather is also bilingual.

The guy who cuts your grass is also likely a survivor of multiple hardships/atrocities in his home country. He is here taking advantage of your expendable cash ( an laziness) to better himself and or a whole family in the US and likely back home. He will take your money and bring his family here or support them at home. I think that makes him less of the loser than you think he is.

Yeah. Between PP and the guy who cuts his grass, I think I know which one I'd rather Be around.

Employer of lawn service here. Point out in my post where I said the guy who cuts my grass is a "loser" or that I "think he is" a loser. Or even implied that.

Here's what I do think: I think he and the millions of bilingual people living in the US aren't necessarily geniuses with massive advantages over monolingual people in the US.

This contradicts the Kool-Aid fueled mantra of many young white DC parents who like to post on DCUM. That is all.

New poster here: think what you like, but my child who is a math/science whiz and headed towards a top engineering program in a few years will without a doubt benefit in the job market from being one of very few truly bilingual/biliterate, American-born engineers. Thanks, immersion education!

That doesn't make me a superior parent, just as sending a kid to the neighborhood school doesn't make you superior. It just means that we were willing to take a chance on immersion education and then didn't pull out for a non-immersion program when we realized kid was more math/science focused. Why would we, when engineers outside the US somehow manage to acquire STEM skills AND become bi/multi-lingual?

[Anonymous]

It would be interesting to know if MySchoolDC is tracking data such as number of applications to dual-language vs. other focus schools (not dual-language), or Montessori vs. other, and compiling data to show trends in applications. I'd be interested to know for example what % of parents last year applied to dual language programs vs. not dual language, how they ranked them (maybe just looking at the top 3 rankings overall?), and if there's a change this year.

I guess since last year some of the most popular dual language schools (Stokes, YY and LAMB) didn't enter the lottery, and everyone could apply to each of those as well as common lottery, it's more reliable to start looking at that this year. (LAMB is the only hold out this year, right?).

Has anyone seen this kind of analysis anywhere for this year compared to last?

[Anonymous]

Totally agree PP. I would love to know that data.