Why do you care what I decide to do to my son's penis when he is born?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have millions of men running around now who are extremely scarred? It is interesting that rarely do fathers get so very hysterical about this issue, but the mother sure do! Quite odd to be that obsessed with your child's and other children's genitalia.

This is what I think every time I see one of these threads. Considering the vast majority of grown men...even teens...have been circd in this society, you would think there would be very known epidemic problems based in what the anti-circ team is saying. I have yet to hear of one grown man express any trauma over their circumcisions.

No one is saying that millions experience long term trauma. They are saying that they have been scarred and that part of their penis has been removed for cosmetic reasons and that it is not justifiable to put a newborn baby who is unable to consent through this process. Many men express regret that this was done to them and that number will only increase as the procedure becomes less common and as your children become the unusual ones (just like in the rest of the world).

This is primarily a women's board, that is why the majority of people posting here are women.

My husband is very happy his parents made the choice to circ him. What if yours wishes you had done the same? It is much more traumatic and risky to do it as an adult.

Really, the histrionics around this issue just isn't warranted. It really makes you sound unstable and crazy.

You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

The people who care what other parents do with respect to circing. All weirdos and unstable. There is a lot of overlap with that group and anti-vaxers.

NP here. You are wrong on this one (or do you have evidence?). I am VERY pro-vaccine, and very anti-circ. Because I look at what makes sense from a scientific/medical perspective. I would think there are many people who think that way. Most of Europe, for instance.

PP here again. And labeling people who oppose routine infant circumcision as "weirdos and unstable" (as has been done many times on this thread) just reveals that you are really at a loss for arguments. You can't win a rational argument about this, so you try to discredit your opponent. Pathetic, and so transparent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - and by "we won't say it to your face" I don't mean that we are afraid to say it, but rather, we'd be too polite to say it. Or, we'd find it pointless to say it, or to make someone feel bad after the fact. Or that we don't give unsolicited advice. But it does not mean we don't have an opinion.

The truth is you know you'd look like the nutcase you are.

If anybody said that to me, they would be out of our lives so fast it would make their head spin.

Again, you lack the courage of your misguided convictions and you are totally two-faced.

Please post your full name here so that all the sane people can do our best to avoid you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a current of religious intolerance in the whole discussion here (other thread, but it a
Ways is that was on similar threads). I don't feel I have to apologize for being a proud Jewish woman, looking forward to raising a Jewish son. But I don't plan on having many people check out my sons dick. It's so odd to me that people are seeing all these other kids penises! And I'm not even prude. Just, why would hu be checking out my son?

I have issues with the claim "religious intolerance." There are areas around the world where some groups of people circumcise girls in the name of religion, and people call it genital mutilation.

Religious tolerance is one thing, but I think there are some practices done in the name of religion that should be questioned because they involve altering a child's (who is unable to consent) genitalia irreversibly.

Equating circumcision with female genital mutilation is nuts. They aren't remotely the same thing. One is done as a covenant with God (and for health reasons) while the other is to punish and control women to inhibit their sexual pleasure.

It's like equating getting your ears pierced with having a bullet in your head...hey, they're both holes!

Actually, some people argue that female circumcision is done for religious reasons. They are the same thing: mutilating a child in the name of religion. And male circumcision IS mutilation. You are cutting away and altering the boy's genitalia. If you believe that that is necessary to continue a covenant with god, then own it, call it what it is. but don't claim that mutilation one religion does (Muslim and female circumcision) is bad and controlling but mutilation another religion sanctions (Judaism and male circumcision) is good. They both involve invasive, altering procedures done to a person who has no say in the matter.

There have been arguments made that male circumcision actually does nerve damage and reduces sensation in the penis. If you think there isn't an element of control going on with with male circumcision, then you are completely deluding yourself. Not to mention, an infant boy has no way of agreeing or consenting to entering into a covenant with god. How is it not controlling for the parent to make that decision for an infant, especially when the alteration done to his genitalia is ABSOLUTELY irreversible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not let someone as judgmental and clearly in need of therapy change my son's diapers. Just would not do it. We don't have a lot of judgmental psychos in our boys diapers. Just sayin'

Yes, this. It's astonishing this poster has any friends at all. Certainly, the second Judge Judy mentioned that was too bad that the other mother "mutilated" her son would be the end of the friendship -- and every parent in a several mile radius would know to avoid her like the plague.

The thing is, most of us who think you did the wrong thing won't say it to your face. A poster upthread articulated it very well. Yes, we notice (or it comes up) and we don't say a word because what can we do once you've done it? If you ask me what I think, I'll tell you what I believe, and if you ask my advice on doing it or not, I will not sugarcoat my opinion, either. But I would not say to anyone, "you mutilated your baby!" any more than I'd say "I can't believe you didn't fully vaccinate (I do)" or anything else. I DO have an opinion on it, I do think less of you and wonder how, as PP said, an otherwise smart and nice person would decide to do such a thing, and then I'd move on. I know lots of people who have circumcised. I've never mentioned my thoughts on it to them. But they are still my thoughts. You can be pretty sure that anyone who chose NOT to do it has an opinion on it. Most of us aren't going to put it in your face unless you ask (as the OP of this thread did).

And you can be pretty sure that those of us who had our sons circumcised has an opinion on it. Just because you came to the opposite conclusion doesn't mean we didn't do research or think about it deeply. I'm not going to say anything when I see your son is uncircumcised, but I'm going to be thinking things about you, too, so you needn't act as if you're doing us unenlightened morons a favor by not lecturing us. Because I can assure you, that feeling goes both ways.

I think the key difference is, I wouldn't give your opinion on this matter even a split second's worth of thought - I'm just really confident in what I did. Judging from the posters on here, though, starting with the defensive OP, those who circ are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not let someone as judgmental and clearly in need of therapy change my son's diapers. Just would not do it. We don't have a lot of judgmental psychos in our boys diapers. Just sayin'

Yes, this. It's astonishing this poster has any friends at all. Certainly, the second Judge Judy mentioned that was too bad that the other mother "mutilated" her son would be the end of the friendship -- and every parent in a several mile radius would know to avoid her like the plague.

The thing is, most of us who think you did the wrong thing won't say it to your face. A poster upthread articulated it very well. Yes, we notice (or it comes up) and we don't say a word because what can we do once you've done it? If you ask me what I think, I'll tell you what I believe, and if you ask my advice on doing it or not, I will not sugarcoat my opinion, either. But I would not say to anyone, "you mutilated your baby!" any more than I'd say "I can't believe you didn't fully vaccinate (I do)" or anything else. I DO have an opinion on it, I do think less of you and wonder how, as PP said, an otherwise smart and nice person would decide to do such a thing, and then I'd move on. I know lots of people who have circumcised. I've never mentioned my thoughts on it to them. But they are still my thoughts. You can be pretty sure that anyone who chose NOT to do it has an opinion on it. Most of us aren't going to put it in your face unless you ask (as the OP of this thread did).

And you can be pretty sure that those of us who had our sons circumcised has an opinion on it. Just because you came to the opposite conclusion doesn't mean we didn't do research or think about it deeply. I'm not going to say anything when I see your son is uncircumcised, but I'm going to be thinking things about you, too, so you needn't act as if you're doing us unenlightened morons a favor by not lecturing us. Because I can assure you, that feeling goes both ways.

Not PP, but you are missing her point. You obviously can't have researched it thoroughly because if you had, you would not have come to that conclusion. So yes, we feel sorry for you and sorrier for your sons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - and by "we won't say it to your face" I don't mean that we are afraid to say it, but rather, we'd be too polite to say it. Or, we'd find it pointless to say it, or to make someone feel bad after the fact. Or that we don't give unsolicited advice. But it does not mean we don't have an opinion.

The truth is you know you'd look like the nutcase you are.

If anybody said that to me, they would be out of our lives so fast it would make their head spin.

Again, you lack the courage of your misguided convictions and you are totally two-faced.

Seriously, who cares about your thoughts here? If you don't care about mine, that's good, but clearly, you do. I did not circ. If someone told me why they thought I should, I'd listen, nod politely and try to keep my eyes from rolling, and move on. If you'd divorce someone as a friend because they were honest about their feelings after you asked them, then you have thin skin. and that's fine! But you should assume if you have friends who have not circed they have an opinion on it.

And to the posters who just can't get it - I don't have ANY opinion about what your child's penis "looks like." I do have an opinion about circumcision, which is not at ALL limited to, or even incidentally, about aesthetics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have millions of men running around now who are extremely scarred? It is interesting that rarely do fathers get so very hysterical about this issue, but the mother sure do! Quite odd to be that obsessed with your child's and other children's genitalia.

This is what I think every time I see one of these threads. Considering the vast majority of grown men...even teens...have been circd in this society, you would think there would be very known epidemic problems based in what the anti-circ team is saying. I have yet to hear of one grown man express any trauma over their circumcisions.

No one is saying that millions experience long term trauma. They are saying that they have been scarred and that part of their penis has been removed for cosmetic reasons and that it is not justifiable to put a newborn baby who is unable to consent through this process. Many men express regret that this was done to them and that number will only increase as the procedure becomes less common and as your children become the unusual ones (just like in the rest of the world).

This is primarily a women's board, that is why the majority of people posting here are women.

My husband is very happy his parents made the choice to circ him. What if yours wishes you had done the same? It is much more traumatic and risky to do it as an adult.

Really, the histrionics around this issue just isn't warranted. It really makes you sound unstable and crazy.

You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

The people who care what other parents do with respect to circing. All weirdos and unstable. There is a lot of overlap with that group and anti-vaxers.

Let's take a look at this:

Vaccinations -- many are evidence based and have saved lives.
Circumcision -- no compelling medical evidence.

I follow evidence based practice. My kids are vaccinated if there is research that backs that up (as there frequently, but not always is). My kids are not cut because there is no compelling reason do to it and many compelling reasons to leave them as perfect as they were born.

If you want to discuss vaccinations more thoroughly, I suggest you start your own thread.

Absolutely false that circs don't have medical value. You truly haven't done your research if you think this is true.

Not the PP, but YOU haven't done any real research. For starters, look at this:

"only 1 of the arguments put forward by the American Academy of Pediatrics has some theoretical relevance in relation to infant male circumcision; namely, the possible protection against urinary tract infections in infant boys, which can easily be treated with antibiotics without tissue loss. The other claimed health benefits, including protection against HIV/AIDS, genital herpes, genital warts, and penile cancer, are questionable, weak, and likely to have little public health relevance in a Western context, and they do not represent compelling reasons for surgery before boys are old enough to decide for themselves."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.abstract

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have millions of men running around now who are extremely scarred? It is interesting that rarely do fathers get so very hysterical about this issue, but the mother sure do! Quite odd to be that obsessed with your child's and other children's genitalia.

This is what I think every time I see one of these threads. Considering the vast majority of grown men...even teens...have been circd in this society, you would think there would be very known epidemic problems based in what the anti-circ team is saying. I have yet to hear of one grown man express any trauma over their circumcisions.

No one is saying that millions experience long term trauma. They are saying that they have been scarred and that part of their penis has been removed for cosmetic reasons and that it is not justifiable to put a newborn baby who is unable to consent through this process. Many men express regret that this was done to them and that number will only increase as the procedure becomes less common and as your children become the unusual ones (just like in the rest of the world).

This is primarily a women's board, that is why the majority of people posting here are women.

My husband is very happy his parents made the choice to circ him. What if yours wishes you had done the same? It is much more traumatic and risky to do it as an adult.

Really, the histrionics around this issue just isn't warranted. It really makes you sound unstable and crazy.

You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

The people who care what other parents do with respect to circing. All weirdos and unstable. There is a lot of overlap with that group and anti-vaxers.

NP here. You are wrong on this one (or do you have evidence?). I am VERY pro-vaccine, and very anti-circ. Because I look at what makes sense from a scientific/medical perspective. I would think there are many people who think that way. Most of Europe, for instance.

PP here again. And labeling people who oppose routine infant circumcision as "weirdos and unstable" (as has been done many times on this thread) just reveals that you are really at a loss for arguments. You can't win a rational argument about this, so you try to discredit your opponent. Pathetic, and so transparent.

Okey dokey crazy cakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57497265-10391704/declining-circumcision-rates-may-add-$4-billion-in-u.s-health-care-costs-researchers-say/

CBS News -- Circumcision rates in the United States have been falling among newborn males. Recent CDC figures show the circumcision rate fell from nearly 63 percent of newborn boys in the U.S. in 1999 to about 55 percent in 2010. But, back in the 1970s through the 1980s, circumcision rates were stable at about 79 percent of baby boys.

The procedure has been tied to health benefits, including reduced risk for infections or sexually transmitted diseases like HIV. Now, a group of researchers from Johns Hopkins University say the declining male circumcision (MC) rates may be contributing to an uptick in medical problems, adding billions of dollars in additional U.S. health care costs.

German doctors asked to cease circumcisions until court ruling clarified
Circumcision tied to lower prostate cancer risk
Circumcision rates slipping, says CDC: Why?

"Our economic evidence is backing up what our medical evidence has already shown to be perfectly clear," study author Dr. Aaron Tobian, an assistant professor of epidemiology and pathology at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, said in a written statement. "There are health benefits to infant male circumcision in guarding against illness and disease, and declining male circumcision rates come at a severe price, not just in human suffering, but in billions of health care dollars as well."


But what does HE know? He's only a doctor.

Circumcision is only a health/medical issue if the area isn't properly cleaned. It is actually an issue in areas of the world where there isn't running water, clean water and other challenges to maintaining hygiene.

Also, correlation is not causation. I am suspicious of researchers blaming HIV increased transmission on circumcision. I think not using protection is more of an issue with HIV transmission. And to focus on circumcision instead is irresponsible.

Again, if a person is taught how to properly clean the area, then it isn't a health issue to not get circumcised. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - and by "we won't say it to your face" I don't mean that we are afraid to say it, but rather, we'd be too polite to say it. Or, we'd find it pointless to say it, or to make someone feel bad after the fact. Or that we don't give unsolicited advice. But it does not mean we don't have an opinion.

The truth is you know you'd look like the nutcase you are.

If anybody said that to me, they would be out of our lives so fast it would make their head spin.

Again, you lack the courage of your misguided convictions and you are totally two-faced.

Seriously, who cares about your thoughts here? If you don't care about mine, that's good, but clearly, you do. I did not circ. If someone told me why they thought I should, I'd listen, nod politely and try to keep my eyes from rolling, and move on. If you'd divorce someone as a friend because they were honest about their feelings after you asked them, then you have thin skin. and that's fine! But you should assume if you have friends who have not circed they have an opinion on it.

And to the posters who just can't get it - I don't have ANY opinion about what your child's penis "looks like." I do have an opinion about circumcision, which is not at ALL limited to, or even incidentally, about aesthetics.

Agree. It is the folks who cut the genitalia of their boy children who are hung up on how they look. Why else would they come up with crazy justifications like "to look like daddy". I don't care how your child's penis looks, any more than I care about how my child's does. What I care about is that it functions as intended and is not arbitrarily injured or surgically cut.

[Anonymous]

In my opinion, moms should get no say whatsoever in this. They don't get to have an opinion.

[Anonymous]

Do people who broadcast that anti-curc people are "crazy" really think that nearly 50% of people choose not to circ because we're nuts?

Or could it possibly be that I see not cutting as the default, and DS' father and I just didn't see a compelling reason to cut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - and by "we won't say it to your face" I don't mean that we are afraid to say it, but rather, we'd be too polite to say it. Or, we'd find it pointless to say it, or to make someone feel bad after the fact. Or that we don't give unsolicited advice. But it does not mean we don't have an opinion.

The truth is you know you'd look like the nutcase you are.

If anybody said that to me, they would be out of our lives so fast it would make their head spin.

Again, you lack the courage of your misguided convictions and you are totally two-faced.

Please post your full name here so that all the sane people can do our best to avoid you.

Why don't YOU post YOUR full name here, so we all of us normal folks know who to keep out of their homes so they won't be "judged"?

[Anonymous]

WTF is this crap , now circumcision its mutilation? That puts you up in fucking moron status. I am not jewish and did not do it for religion. We circed for medical benefits. Its a tiny flap of skin get over it I couldn't care less about your kid's. Just cause the koran says you should wash your hands before eating it doesn't make me muslim if I do so. In fact all religions have some logical reasons for certain practices that are not just ceremonial.

if for some reason you brought it up in a casual conversation I would think you are a freak but wouldn't blast you with all the medical studies I would just move on to another subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:WTF is this crap , now circumcision its mutilation? That puts you up in fucking moron status. I am not jewish and did not do it for religion. We circed for medical benefits. Its a tiny flap of skin get over it I couldn't care less about your kid's. Just cause the koran says you should wash your hands before eating it doesn't make me muslim if I do so. In fact all religions have some logical reasons for certain practices that are not just ceremonial.

if for some reason you brought it up in a casual conversation I would think you are a freak but wouldn't blast you with all the medical studies I would just move on to another subject.

I'll take you seriously if you learn to use punctuation.