Paying for a second or third tier college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Floridian here. Can someone explain why NJ has such weak state schools when the taxes are so high there?

And I agree with the others that the state matters. We have a great option here (which I’d actually claim is tier 2 not 3 as claimed earlier) so for us the decision is simple. But if it was basically pay for a good school or don’t go to a good school at all, I’d be more likely to pay. Actually have you looked at UF? The OOS sticker price is probably equivalent to in state at many others but for a stronger college.

Former NJ resident- taxes are high partly because the public K-12 schools are usually quite strong, especially anywhere within commuting distance of NYC. There’s also probably still some level of corruption contributing to it, but that’s a topic for another day.

Rutgers is a perfectly great school and an excellent choice. On par with UMD, OSU, etc. Better than a lot of state flagships. But growing up in NJ nobody wanted to go to Rutgers. The campus is not super appealing, including different campuses that you need to take buses between. Nobody likes New Brunswick. Most NJ kids either want to go to New England, NYC, or South for good weather. NJ has a lot of smart, underprivileged kids who do great at Rutgers but UMC families dont love that and would rather pay more for their kids to go to a fancier option or another state flagship. Penn State and Vtech were super popular for my high school graduating class.

Former NJ resident and this is true. UMC rather go to Lehigh or Colgate than Rutgers, or BU/BC/Villanova or south if want SEC.

Lehigh, Colgate, Villanova are very popular my-kid-didn't get in to UVA schools in our area this year. There are a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, if HYPSM are tier 1, then everything else is tier 2, tier 3, or 4, 5, 6. Tier 2 doesn't necessarily denote "low" tier.

Tier 2 or 3 are not low tiers at all. Even 4 has good colleges for certain students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Many Georgia parents of high stats kids are wrestling with this and normally it’s been a no-brainer. UGA or GA Tech with the Zell Miller scholarship (full tuition) wins over paying for both Tier 1 and Tier 2 privates a lot of the time (even in full pay families).

I just looked up. It seems that they award many such scholarships each year. No wonder GA Tech is able to maintain such a high standard. For those who are not STEM inclined though, it’s a tough choice, as UGA is such a downgrade!

Were I a GA resident and could send me kid to either of these schools practically free I'd do it in a heartbeat over just about any school. One of my kids' UVA roommate was a GA resident who turned down GA Tech for engineering and paid OOS tuition to UVA instead and that never made sense to me.

that was 100% a dumb decision. I'm betting that the kid just wanted to go oos, and to the best oos they could get into.

To turn down GT for UVA for eng... that's a 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Have you toured GT? We did and it was the land of super, super nerdy STEM kids. I'm married to a geeky engineer who spent his college Friday nights doing problem sets with friends but my kid is mainstream and couldn't see herself there at all. She hated the vibe and we spent hours and hours on the campus trying to see if she could see herself there.

There is more to college than just a rating.

It's funny - I turned down GT for UVA Engineering back in the early 2000s. I met my now surgeon wife in college Can't promise that will happen for everyone, but yes there's more to college than just a rating.

But were you a Georgia resident though?

Nope, and paying in state for UVA was substantially cheaper (especially back then) and a major part of the consideration. I was just surprised to see a direct UVA Eng/GT comparision come up a couple times. I of course also applied to VT, but loved the UVA campus and the other options if engineering wasn't for me (it was though!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point of going to college is not just to take classes. It is the peer group and the academic environment.

Any school with an average SAT below 1500 is probably not really worth 100K COA. If the peer group is not at that level, then what exactly are you paying for?

Conversely, if the state school average above 1500, then yes it's better than going to a private with a lower average. You want your DC to be surrounded by serious, highly capable students.

Test optional schools have a lot of dummies.

Take those off your list.

Then the list will look like this:

Tier 1
HYPSM, JHU, Upenn, Brown, CalTech.

Tier2
Cornell, Dartmouth, Rice, CMU, Georgetown

Tier 3
Gatech, UT

Rice is Test optional

[Anonymous]

You and your DC should follow @ivy_roadmap on Instagram . His motto is “ Go Ivy or Go Free” . Ivy meaning any prestigious school and free meaning a state school or low cost option. I fully agree with his rationale nowadays. With the access to information being so ubiquitous , you’ll probably be learning the same thing at a school like Kenyon College vs your instate school. What Ivies and top 20/30 schools get you is connections. If you’re not getting these, it’s not worth paying $400K for a degree from a second tier private .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You and your DC should follow @ivy_roadmap on Instagram . His motto is “ Go Ivy or Go Free” . Ivy meaning any prestigious school and free meaning a state school or low cost option. I fully agree with his rationale nowadays. With the access to information being so ubiquitous , you’ll probably be learning the same thing at a school like Kenyon College vs your instate school. What Ivies and top 20/30 schools get you is connections. If you’re not getting these, it’s not worth paying $400K for a degree from a second tier private .

I mean, for you. There are privates that do the same (connections) in Texas and other larger states. And plenty who can afford it.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a contrarian opinion. I started at a lower ranked private college (I did zero in high school) and then decided to change my ways. I did well and transferred to a T20/30. The difference between the schools was night and day. The students at the T20/30 were excellent and worked hard. The environment inspired me to work hard. I did very well and entered JD/MBA program at an Ivy. Sometimes it’s worth paying for a strong environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point of going to college is not just to take classes. It is the peer group and the academic environment.

Any school with an average SAT below 1500 is probably not really worth 100K COA. If the peer group is not at that level, then what exactly are you paying for?

Conversely, if the state school average above 1500, then yes it's better than going to a private with a lower average. You want your DC to be surrounded by serious, highly capable students.

Test optional schools have a lot of dummies.

Take those off your list.

Then the list will look like this:

Tier 1
HYPSM, JHU, Upenn, Brown, CalTech.

Tier2
Cornell, Dartmouth, Rice, CMU, Georgetown

Tier 3
Gatech, UT

Rice is Test optional

Rice is test recommended. If you have examples of unhooked kids getting in without test scores, would be interesting to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The point of going to college is not just to take classes. It is the peer group and the academic environment.

Any school with an average SAT below 1500 is probably not really worth 100K COA. If the peer group is not at that level, then what exactly are you paying for?

Conversely, if the state school average above 1500, then yes it's better than going to a private with a lower average. You want your DC to be surrounded by serious, highly capable students.

.

2% of students have an SAT score of 1500 or above. I would hate to spend four years with a group that all scored in the top 2%. Luckily no such colleges exist.

I’d rather be with a variety of students from all over. Bill Clinton, partier and smart guy got a 1030 on the SAT. Most of the athletes making millions of dollars have average scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are going to need to treat the kids the same. One of them got private tuition, the other should get it as well. That doesn't mean you don't have a conversation with them about finances and why you prefer they choose public. But I think you have to be fair.

I like the idea of offering pub school + giving them 200k at the end of it. But you didn't offer that to kid #1, so I'd take that off the table. Be fair.

+ 1 Just spend a minute imagining the conversation you are going to have to have with your younger child. Can you explain your rationale without making them believe that you think their older sibling is smarter, better and more deserving than they are?

I think that it’s completely fair for parents to tell kids that the economy is worse, that the parents are older, and that the parents can now afford to pay only $x for college.

I think that, ideally, parents should actually talk to kids about that every three months from the time kids understand what money is.

Parents should give their kids a quarterly family financial status report.

“You know, Larla, this quarter, everything was great; we’re on target for making you full-pay at a private school,” or, “Larlo, this past quarter, everything went wrong. If you’ve ever considered running away to join the circus, this might be a time to explore that option.”

Parents should say, every quarter, “Right now, we’re on track to pay $x per year for college for you. That’s changed from $y last quarter because of changes in our job-related earnings and investment earnings.”

And I think it’s fine to tell kids that they need to have a minor or a second major that will give them a clear-cut path to earning a living once they’re out of college.

But I think it’s a mistake for parents to favor one college over the other or one primary major over another. Partly because the world is unpredictable and you don’t really know who can do what.

Example: I don’t personally know a single adult who makes a living in an engineering field other software engineering, and I only know four people involved in careers related to designing, coding or managing software.

I know a dozen bright, sane, hardworking but fairly ordinary people who have made great careers in TV and film, someone with a paid career in poetry, and three people with careers in graphic design.

I personally have a career in an impossible field, and most of the people I know who started up on the same track ended up with careers in that field or a closely related field.

So, you never really know what people can do till they try to do it. What you read about a field in the news may not have much to do with the career prospects of a great kid who can get through a school like Tufts or Boston University and who has a loving, supportive family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point of going to college is not just to take classes. It is the peer group and the academic environment.

Any school with an average SAT below 1500 is probably not really worth 100K COA. If the peer group is not at that level, then what exactly are you paying for?

Conversely, if the state school average above 1500, then yes it's better than going to a private with a lower average. You want your DC to be surrounded by serious, highly capable students.

.

2% of students have an SAT score of 1500 or above. I would hate to spend four years with a group that all scored in the top 2%. Luckily no such colleges exist.

I’d rather be with a variety of students from all over. Bill Clinton, partier and smart guy got a 1030 on the SAT. Most of the athletes making millions of dollars have average scores.

Do you know how many colleges there are in this country? All T50 colleges belong to the top 2% of colleges in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many Georgia parents of high stats kids are wrestling with this and normally it’s been a no-brainer. UGA or GA Tech with the Zell Miller scholarship (full tuition) wins over paying for both Tier 1 and Tier 2 privates a lot of the time (even in full pay families).

I just looked up. It seems that they award many such scholarships each year. No wonder GA Tech is able to maintain such a high standard. For those who are not STEM inclined though, it’s a tough choice, as UGA is such a downgrade!

Were I a GA resident and could send me kid to either of these schools practically free I'd do it in a heartbeat over just about any school. One of my kids' UVA roommate was a GA resident who turned down GA Tech for engineering and paid OOS tuition to UVA instead and that never made sense to me.

that was 100% a dumb decision. I'm betting that the kid just wanted to go oos, and to the best oos they could get into.

To turn down GT for UVA for eng... that's a 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Have you toured GT? We did and it was the land of super, super nerdy STEM kids. I'm married to a geeky engineer who spent his college Friday nights doing problem sets with friends but my kid is mainstream and couldn't see herself there at all. She hated the vibe and we spent hours and hours on the campus trying to see if she could see herself there.

There is more to college than just a rating.

It's funny - I turned down GT for UVA Engineering back in the early 2000s. I met my now surgeon wife in college Can't promise that will happen for everyone, but yes there's more to college than just a rating.

But were you a Georgia resident though?

Nope, and paying in state for UVA was substantially cheaper (especially back then) and a major part of the consideration. I was just surprised to see a direct UVA Eng/GT comparision come up a couple times. I of course also applied to VT, but loved the UVA campus and the other options if engineering wasn't for me (it was though!).

dp.. then it makes sense to go to UVA over GT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many Georgia parents of high stats kids are wrestling with this and normally it’s been a no-brainer. UGA or GA Tech with the Zell Miller scholarship (full tuition) wins over paying for both Tier 1 and Tier 2 privates a lot of the time (even in full pay families).

I just looked up. It seems that they award many such scholarships each year. No wonder GA Tech is able to maintain such a high standard. For those who are not STEM inclined though, it’s a tough choice, as UGA is such a downgrade!

Were I a GA resident and could send me kid to either of these schools practically free I'd do it in a heartbeat over just about any school. One of my kids' UVA roommate was a GA resident who turned down GA Tech for engineering and paid OOS tuition to UVA instead and that never made sense to me.

that was 100% a dumb decision. I'm betting that the kid just wanted to go oos, and to the best oos they could get into.

To turn down GT for UVA for eng... that's a 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Have you toured GT? We did and it was the land of super, super nerdy STEM kids. I'm married to a geeky engineer who spent his college Friday nights doing problem sets with friends but my kid is mainstream and couldn't see herself there at all. She hated the vibe and we spent hours and hours on the campus trying to see if she could see herself there.

There is more to college than just a rating.

It's funny - I turned down GT for UVA Engineering back in the early 2000s. I met my now surgeon wife in college Can't promise that will happen for everyone, but yes there's more to college than just a rating.

But were you a Georgia resident though?

Nope, and paying in state for UVA was substantially cheaper (especially back then) and a major part of the consideration. I was just surprised to see a direct UVA Eng/GT comparision come up a couple times. I of course also applied to VT, but loved the UVA campus and the other options if engineering wasn't for me (it was though!).

dp.. then it makes sense to go to UVA over GT.

Exactly. The valedictorians of my son’s school over the past couple of years gave up an Ivy for a full ride in a T50 state flagship (one in state and one oos).

For the GT vs. UVA engineering case, some were surprised one would rather pay quite a bit more for a less strong program!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ only 40% of students at UVA and Vanderbilt, for example, submitted scores. You can’t trust their reported numbers. The averages only matter when 100% of students are required to submit scores.

half of the top tier schools have test, optional and Vanderbilt’s number is higher than 40%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Virginia of it all really distorts this question—Virginia and California are really the only states with more than one public college that is on par with nationally renowned privates.

That said, I am the oldest of three kids and went to any Ivy. My brother, the second oldest, went to a top 50 school with high name recognition. My sister, the youngest, went to a no-name regional SLAC on a full ride merit scholarship. I have an excellent, high-earning career. My brother has a very good career and is married to an extremely successful woman. My sister has been laid off multiple times and is still struggling to find her purpose.

People complain about paying full freight for these schools in the lower half of the top 50 but ime the outcomes are good because the peer group is solid. But if the choice is between noname private or non-flagship public, it gets tough.

Nice anecdote that proves absolutely nothing.