Is Real Change Even Possible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DC teachers union should be ashamed of itself - it is to blame that we have so much dead wood and underperforming, lackluster teachers taking up spots in DCPS. DCPS is not resource poor - it is energized teacher-poor.

Are you kidding me? Teachers can be gotten rid of with a school year thanks to high stakes teaching evaluations.

Teachers are being forced to pass students! The chancellor and mayor are the ones who do not care enough.

[Anonymous]

Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

Like I thought you would, you only mentioned trade jobs that require manual labor skills. What about someone who doesn’t want to work in such field?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

Like I thought you would, you only mentioned trade jobs that require manual labor skills. What about someone who doesn’t want to work in such field?

Now you are moving the goalposts...the question was "what job would you expect someone to get without a degree?"

I literally gave you a fairly detailed answer.

FYI, 1/2 the DOGE Bros don't have college degrees...as much as you may detest them, there are jobs in Tech if you have the skills (primarily acquired on one's own).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

Depends on your college major and you also have to look at ROI.

The average English major from any college ranked probably 25+ doesn't have anything approaching the $2MM lifetime earnings premium. Many if not most have a negative college ROI. Different story for the engineering major.

[Anonymous]

You are basically limiting the purpose of going to college to one goal: Getting a job! What about the intellectual growth? How many of those trade-jobs folks are intellectually curious? Critical thinkers or knowledgeable- outside the limited profession they learned? Pursuing academic degrees and then graduate school beyond that is a must, to build an enlightened society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are basically limiting the purpose of going to college to one goal: Getting a job! What about the intellectual growth? How many of those trade-jobs folks are intellectually curious? Critical thinkers or knowledgeable- outside the limited profession they learned? Pursuing academic degrees and then graduate school beyond that is a must, to build an enlightened society.

I was answering a specific question posted by PP. You are introducing a completely different issue.

What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

This. People were okay taking manual labor jobs at a time when life expectancy was shorter and when it was feasible to get a pension after say 20 years of service. You might never be rich but around the time you physically couldn't do the job anymore, you could retire and live okay.

Cost of living is much higher and people live much longer. Social security kicks in later and the vast majority of jobs in the trades don't have pensions. What happens when someone without a college degree is simply physically no longer able to climb up on roofs or get under cars on a daily basis, and they have no pension and social security is at least 15 years away? What do they do in the meantime. Another thing that used to happen is that businesses would take care of their own a bit and someone in this position might be kept on in a management position to help train younger workers and oversee jobs. But now these businesses have been corporatized or bought up by private equity, and someone like that is seen as dead weight that is not sufficiently profitable. Out you go.

If my kid wanted to go into a trade, I'd still suggest they get at least an associates degree in business so that they have a way to segue from the labor side to management, start their own business, etc. If they wanted to go straight into a trade, I'd help them find night or other PT programs to ensure they got some kind of academic training in a practical field that would complement that work. My brother worked construction in his 20s while getting a degree -- it is tough for a while but in the end puts you in a better position than many other college grads because you have more money and you have real work experience.

I want my kids thinking of options for when they are 35, 45, 55. I don't care if they have white collar jobs but I don't want them to be short sighted and then have major regrets when they want to buy a house, when they blow out their knee, when their own kid has college aspirations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

Depends on your college major and you also have to look at ROI.

The average English major from any college ranked probably 25+ doesn't have anything approaching the $2MM lifetime earnings premium. Many if not most have a negative college ROI. Different story for the engineering major.

Even English majors have a work advantage over someone without a degree. An English major can apply for a management position because they have a BA, in many organizations you will be immediately weeded out without that degree.

Many English majors wind up in teaching, a profession with a lot of job securities and terrific retirement benefits. A pension at 50 or 55 is worth way more than whatever the degree cost.

People crap all over English majors but the truth is that even an English major is more employable, with greater flexibility in shifting labor markets and more longterm earning potential, than someone with no college degree at all. Get that English degree from a state school with no loans, and even better. College degrees continue to be worth a lot in our society, even if not from top schools and even if not from the hottest majors. It is naive to think otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

Depends on your college major and you also have to look at ROI.

The average English major from any college ranked probably 25+ doesn't have anything approaching the $2MM lifetime earnings premium. Many if not most have a negative college ROI. Different story for the engineering major.

Even English majors have a work advantage over someone without a degree. An English major can apply for a management position because they have a BA, in many organizations you will be immediately weeded out without that degree.

Many English majors wind up in teaching, a profession with a lot of job securities and terrific retirement benefits. A pension at 50 or 55 is worth way more than whatever the degree cost.

People crap all over English majors but the truth is that even an English major is more employable, with greater flexibility in shifting labor markets and more longterm earning potential, than someone with no college degree at all. Get that English degree from a state school with no loans, and even better. College degrees continue to be worth a lot in our society, even if not from top schools and even if not from the hottest majors. It is naive to think otherwise.

Except what you write isn't true.

Go read this study (which is one of many) https://freopp.org/whitepapers/does-college-pay-off-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis/

To highlight:

The findings show that college is worth it more often than not, but there are key exceptions. ROI for the median bachelor’s degree is $160,000, but that median belies a wide range of outcomes for individual programs. Bachelor’s degrees in engineering, computer science, nursing, and economics tend to have a payoff of $500,000 or more. Other majors, including fine arts, education, English, and psychology, usually have a smaller payoff — or none at all.

Alternatives to the traditional four-year degree produce varied results. Undergraduate certificates in the technical trades tend to have a stronger ROI than the median bachelor’s degree. However, many other subbaccalaureate credentials — including associate degrees in liberal arts or general education — have no payoff at all. Field of study is the paramount consideration at both the baccalaureate and subbaccalaureate levels.

All sectors of higher education contain negative-ROI programs. Nearly a quarter of bachelor’s degree programs have negative ROI, along with 43 percent of associate degree programs. Master’s degree programs, with their high costs and uneven benefits, are among the worst performers: nearly half fail to pay off.

About 70 percent of undergraduate programs yield a positive return on investment. While that means higher education is still a decent bet on average, a large minority of programs do not pay off. Around 23 percent of four-year degree programs have a negative return on investment, along with 43 percent of two-year degree programs. (These figures, along with all others in the report unless otherwise indicated, are weighted by enrollment.)

Undergraduate certificates in the technical trades — which include vehicle maintenance and repair, precision metal working, HVAC technology, and electrical and power transmission installation — are more lucrative than a bachelor’s degree. Median ROI for the technical trades is $313,000, compared to just $160,000 for the median bachelor’s degree. Two-year degrees in nursing and other health professions also boast a strong median ROI of $224,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

This. People were okay taking manual labor jobs at a time when life expectancy was shorter and when it was feasible to get a pension after say 20 years of service. You might never be rich but around the time you physically couldn't do the job anymore, you could retire and live okay.

Cost of living is much higher and people live much longer. Social security kicks in later and the vast majority of jobs in the trades don't have pensions. What happens when someone without a college degree is simply physically no longer able to climb up on roofs or get under cars on a daily basis, and they have no pension and social security is at least 15 years away? What do they do in the meantime. Another thing that used to happen is that businesses would take care of their own a bit and someone in this position might be kept on in a management position to help train younger workers and oversee jobs. But now these businesses have been corporatized or bought up by private equity, and someone like that is seen as dead weight that is not sufficiently profitable. Out you go.

If my kid wanted to go into a trade, I'd still suggest they get at least an associates degree in business so that they have a way to segue from the labor side to management, start their own business, etc. If they wanted to go straight into a trade, I'd help them find night or other PT programs to ensure they got some kind of academic training in a practical field that would complement that work. My brother worked construction in his 20s while getting a degree -- it is tough for a while but in the end puts you in a better position than many other college grads because you have more money and you have real work experience.

I want my kids thinking of options for when they are 35, 45, 55. I don't care if they have white collar jobs but I don't want them to be short sighted and then have major regrets when they want to buy a house, when they blow out their knee, when their own kid has college aspirations.

First, very few jobs these days have a pension...in fact almost none. We have 401k accounts which nearly every company provides regardless of your job function

Second, there are many trade jobs working at large companies that come with benefits, 401k retirement options, etc. Those companies also allow the junior welder to move up through the organization and become management of the welding/trade groups, so no you aren't having to perform the same physical tasks at 50 as when you were 20.

The WSJ article wasn't showing kids going to work for some mom & pop operation, but some large companies (and some small companies too).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell me what are the job outcomes for your AP students? Maybe kids should be focused more on learning life skills as they go to HS. Going to college is no longer the meal ticket to a good job.

Not saying no rigorous education but it’s not the end all be all anymore. Going to a great college also doesn’t translate to a great job.

The job market is tough, but not going to college isn’t the solution. What job would you expect someone to get without a degree?

DP but there are tons of jobs for kids with trade skills in welding, electrician, machining et al.

WSJ just ran an article about some HSs opening large VoTech shops and getting funding from private industry because there are so many unfilled trade jobs (which blows a hole in the argument that there aren’t good factory jobs).

Every kid in the welding class gets an internship and is offered a FT job with most starting around $80k.

Now, you can’t just go get a job at a car company with zero skills like you could in the 1950s, but you can acquire these skills for little to no cost.

The WSJ can talk until they’re blue in the face but the 2 million dollar lifetime earnings premium to college graduation is a stubborn reality.

Also, invariably, people who point to the trades have never actually worked in a trade. Your body is mostly broken by the time you hit 40 in many if not most trades.

Depends on your college major and you also have to look at ROI.

The average English major from any college ranked probably 25+ doesn't have anything approaching the $2MM lifetime earnings premium. Many if not most have a negative college ROI. Different story for the engineering major.

Even English majors have a work advantage over someone without a degree. An English major can apply for a management position because they have a BA, in many organizations you will be immediately weeded out without that degree.

Many English majors wind up in teaching, a profession with a lot of job securities and terrific retirement benefits. A pension at 50 or 55 is worth way more than whatever the degree cost.

People crap all over English majors but the truth is that even an English major is more employable, with greater flexibility in shifting labor markets and more longterm earning potential, than someone with no college degree at all. Get that English degree from a state school with no loans, and even better. College degrees continue to be worth a lot in our society, even if not from top schools and even if not from the hottest majors. It is naive to think otherwise.

Except what you write isn't true.

Go read this study (which is one of many) https://freopp.org/whitepapers/does-college-pay-off-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis/

To highlight:

The findings show that college is worth it more often than not, but there are key exceptions. ROI for the median bachelor’s degree is $160,000, but that median belies a wide range of outcomes for individual programs. Bachelor’s degrees in engineering, computer science, nursing, and economics tend to have a payoff of $500,000 or more. Other majors, including fine arts, education, English, and psychology, usually have a smaller payoff — or none at all.

Alternatives to the traditional four-year degree produce varied results. Undergraduate certificates in the technical trades tend to have a stronger ROI than the median bachelor’s degree. However, many other subbaccalaureate credentials — including associate degrees in liberal arts or general education — have no payoff at all. Field of study is the paramount consideration at both the baccalaureate and subbaccalaureate levels.

All sectors of higher education contain negative-ROI programs. Nearly a quarter of bachelor’s degree programs have negative ROI, along with 43 percent of associate degree programs. Master’s degree programs, with their high costs and uneven benefits, are among the worst performers: nearly half fail to pay off.

About 70 percent of undergraduate programs yield a positive return on investment. While that means higher education is still a decent bet on average, a large minority of programs do not pay off. Around 23 percent of four-year degree programs have a negative return on investment, along with 43 percent of two-year degree programs. (These figures, along with all others in the report unless otherwise indicated, are weighted by enrollment.)

Undergraduate certificates in the technical trades — which include vehicle maintenance and repair, precision metal working, HVAC technology, and electrical and power transmission installation — are more lucrative than a bachelor’s degree. Median ROI for the technical trades is $313,000, compared to just $160,000 for the median bachelor’s degree. Two-year degrees in nursing and other health professions also boast a strong median ROI of $224,000.

The analysis here is incredibly weak. For instance the ROI by major is based on median earnings. This results in major skewing upwards for degrees with a higher ceiling for and much lower medians for degree that have lower ceilings. It's unsurprising that an education degree shows the lowest median ROI for career earnings because there is a low ceiling on teacher pay relative to other jobs. However, teachers have very high job security and tend to have lucrative benefits that don't kick in until their careers are over. These factors, which are real economic benefits that help ensure that grads with education degrees stay employed even in down economies and secure economic stability into retirement, are not represented in the chart at all. It's also not adjusting for cost of living -- there are people teaching in rural areas who make shockingly little. However, they live in places where it's possible to buy a home for 70k, so it actually might be okay. Whereas people in engineering, computer science, and economics, are likely to be required to live near major cities where cost of living is much higher (and thus so are salaries) -- the median ROI for these jobs is of course much higher but may only result in a moderately higher quality of life because of COL issues.

You might read that article and conclude that everyone should go get a degree in engineering or economics, and if they can't they should just go into the trades. The reality is way more complicated, but that report was written with a clear agenda so those complications are ignored.