Where do you draw the line between upper middle class and upper class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I once read an article referencing the “working wealthy,” which is basically the next income bracket after upper middle class. I would place the limit of UMC at a HHI of around $350k in this area. Thats the amount made by 2 higher level GS employees. Basically two solid professional incomes, or one high income + a SAH or part time working partner.

After that, you’d get into higher income levels, but a lot of those people still consider themselves upper middle because their livelihoods are still based on income. Whereas the really wealthy may or may not be high earners, but they have inherited wealth that means that they can take lower paying jobs at non-profits and such and live off of trust funds and live in a house that’s been in the family for generations.

I know two families with incomes of $350+ who ended up buying in PG and Charles because they were priced out of their most desired counties. I feel like you have to not only make an income but have a survivable savings to cross from middle to upper middle to working wealthy to upper class

Ah, no. They were not "priced out"--they wanted more house than they could afford to buy in their most desired counties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I met my first Wealthy friend when I was 20. Very low key Dad worked in a supermarket. Went to my commuter blue collar school and had a part time job.

He mentioned in conversation his Dad was selling a investment home in the Hamptons that was empty and we said hey can we all go for weekend bring sleeping bags. We knew no furniture. Dad says yes.

We all drive out was a gated complex being built and model home done and a big pool open so buyers could see it.

We all jump in pool after going out at midnight and guards run over we are about to scramble when guards recognize my friend ands start apologizing and said dont tell you Dad.

There was like 32 single family homes being built and his Dad owned them all he was the developer and his Supermarket Job. Well the 50 store supermarket chain he owned it. He was also at his Dads Friends Billy Joel house for a BBQ the weekend before.

we then did get invited to his house ones cand Billy Joel and Christy Brinkley was their next door neighbors. Him and his sister went to my commuter school.

His Dad and Mom were regular people. Never would know.

So rich lifestyle can be similar.

Cool story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class and wealth are related but not the same thing.

You can grow up very low income and become UMC easily by accumulating and growing wealth. But no matter how much money you make, the transition to UC is a lot harder, even from UMC, because so much of it is cultural experience shared from birth on.

There is no obvious line, no obvious amount of wealth that makes one UC vs UMC. Because, like I said, culture (from birth) plays a role here. It's kind of like what SCOTUS says about porn -- you just know it when you see it. I know UC v UMC people because my grandparents were UC. This applies to the US; I wouldn't have a clue elsewhere in the world. Because again -- it's cultural.

Why would you need to transition? What exactly is missing in your life that you are willing to do a lot of unnecessary work in order to “transition to uc”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/line-between-middle-class-upper-110130857.html

Varies by state.

I love that you provided actual data.

Short version - upper middle class ends around 200k in DC/MD/VA (175 in Virginia as whole, NoVa would probably be closer to 200k)

Oh yay! DH and I with our 290k HHI from 2 fed salaries and our 2,300 sq ft 1940s rambler, and 529s that will hopefully cover state schools someday are upper class! I’m so excited to hear this. We are basically the same as the people who own second homes in Nantucket and spend their breaks aboard yachts.

Yes, you are upper class. Sorry if that offends you. Does that mean you are obscenely wealthy? Not it does not. But 95 percent of households in the US make less than yours does. I don't know how much more plainly it can be put. You (like me in my similar circumstances) are upper class.

Yeah but the wage gap between the 95% and the 50% is multitudes closer than the 95% and 1%.

Someone making 300k/year is living a much closer lifestyle compared to a family making 125k/year than a family making $5M year with tons of investments etc. Also the family making 300k could become the family making 125k through some unfortunate circumstances. The 300k family is highly unlikely to ever make anywhere near the 1%.

300k is not that far from the 1%.

"According to the US Census Bureau's 2020 Current Population Survey, the percentage of American households with incomes of $300,000 or more is about 3.8%. This means that approximately 3.8% of American households have an annual income of at least $300,000 before taxes and other deductions.""

And 125K? That's about the 75th percentile.

Per the federal reserve, the top 1% of wealth starts with a NW of over 11M. If you just look at income it is $787,000. J stand by my assertion that a family making 300k is UMC and is much much closer to regular MC (and even the poor) than the 1%.

It’s stupid that the 99% are debating who is MC vs UMC vs UC when the reality is that everyone outside of the impoverished/working poor is some form of middle class (whether lower, middle, or upper) while the 1% are just hoarding their wealth and finding tax loop holes as we quibble over who deserves a few hundred extra tax for the child tax credit. Not to mention your place in the middle class isn’t necessarily stable. Today’s UMC could have a disabled child that requires a parent to leave the workforce and then become LMC.

But if want to think 2 fed salaries and an 80 year old home makes someone UC then I guess go ahead … I don’t think anyone else on this forum will remotely agree with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I bet none of you would proudly crow that your child with the 98% average in school is solidly middle of the pack.

If the 20th through 98th percentile all had grades ranging from Bs to As and the top 2% had A++ grades then I would say the 98% kid is closer to the middle than the extreme.

And regardless classes are not defined by %. It’s defined by how income is divided up in this country. And since it is not nearly divided for each 1% you can’t just call 50% the “middle.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I once read an article referencing the “working wealthy,” which is basically the next income bracket after upper middle class. I would place the limit of UMC at a HHI of around $350k in this area. Thats the amount made by 2 higher level GS employees. Basically two solid professional incomes, or one high income + a SAH or part time working partner.

After that, you’d get into higher income levels, but a lot of those people still consider themselves upper middle because their livelihoods are still based on income. Whereas the really wealthy may or may not be high earners, but they have inherited wealth that means that they can take lower paying jobs at non-profits and such and live off of trust funds and live in a house that’s been in the family for generations.

I know two families with incomes of $350+ who ended up buying in PG and Charles because they were priced out of their most desired counties. I feel like you have to not only make an income but have a survivable savings to cross from middle to upper middle to working wealthy to upper class

Ah, no. They were not "priced out"--they wanted more house than they could afford to buy in their most desired counties.

Agreed. Montgomery County has a population of over 1 million. The average house price in MC is $636,000. And most of MC is made up of solidly middle class Silver Spring. Bethesda/Chevy Chase etc. are only about 15% of the county's population. So they were not "priced out" of MC.

[Anonymous]

Part of the problem here is the term "class" has as much to do with culture, connections, and family as it does it income. Most of the commenters here are really debating about levels of income or wealth (those terms are different but related) and not the broader term of class. However, even if using class as a proxy for wealth and income, there really needs to be a distinction between "wealthy" and truly upper class and all that comes with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper class you stay in the ritz or equivalent on vacations. UMC, you're staying at the JW Marriott or maybe a nice Westin. Upper class you regularly fly business or first class on your European vacation. UMC you're going to Europe but you're flying coach (maybe you cc points will upgrade you if you're lucky). Upper class you have a vacation home someplace nice like the hamptons or its equivalent. UMC, you vacation at the hamptons, but you stay in a nice air bnb.
Upper class-you bought your house in the nicest neighborhood that gets you into the best public schools, but your kid is going to private. UMC, you live near the upper class neighborhood and are zoned for the same great public schools, but private would be a stretch and if you swing for private, you're going to be staying the Courtyard Marriott on your local vacays from now on.

Nope. All this is still UMC. Upper class is private jets, yachts, and the ability to spend money at Chanel if you want.

People making $1mil can do all that, if they want to.

We have a $2m+ HHI and we do not fly on private jets and own yachts. We only recently started flying business class. We do stay at nice hotels.

I know we are technically rich but we feel very UMC. We are just rich enough to know not rich we are.

Some nice trolling there.

Not trolling. People with $1-2m HHI like the us and thr $1m NYC pp are not living lifestyles of the rich and famous. Yes, we can afford private schools, go on vacation, pay for college and live in a nice house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem here is the term "class" has as much to do with culture, connections, and family as it does it income. Most of the commenters here are really debating about levels of income or wealth (those terms are different but related) and not the broader term of class. However, even if using class as a proxy for wealth and income, there really needs to be a distinction between "wealthy" and truly upper class and all that comes with.

Who in the US would be upper class though? I can think of Chappy Morris. Who else?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet none of you would proudly crow that your child with the 98% average in school is solidly middle of the pack.

If the 20th through 98th percentile all had grades ranging from Bs to As and the top 2% had A++ grades then I would say the 98% kid is closer to the middle than the extreme.

And regardless classes are not defined by %. It’s defined by how income is divided up in this country. And since it is not nearly divided for each 1% you can’t just call 50% the “middle.”

Let's look at stock ownership.

89% of stock is owned by the wealthiest 10% of households, and 54% is owned by the top 1%.

So the top 1% own just over half the stock. Within that group are those on boards of directors etc.

The next 9% own a respectable 35% of stock. They aren't running the corporations or getting invited to private fundraising events in the Hamptons, but they're junior players in the game.

Those in the 50th-90th percentile own only about 10% of stock, and the lower 50th have virtually nothing.

This is why "we the 99%" makes no sense. 9% of the population owns more than 3 times the stock than 90% of the population, a group ten their size. There's a reason why we "commoners" don't really buy it when a $300K householder tries to tell us we're all in the same boat and she's really not all that different.

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/buying-stocks/articles/you-might-not-guess-the-amount-of-stocks-owned-by-the-1/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/line-between-middle-class-upper-110130857.html

Varies by state.

I love that you provided actual data.

Short version - upper middle class ends around 200k in DC/MD/VA (175 in Virginia as whole, NoVa would probably be closer to 200k)

Oh yay! DH and I with our 290k HHI from 2 fed salaries and our 2,300 sq ft 1940s rambler, and 529s that will hopefully cover state schools someday are upper class! I’m so excited to hear this. We are basically the same as the people who own second homes in Nantucket and spend their breaks aboard yachts.

Yes, you are upper class. Sorry if that offends you. Does that mean you are obscenely wealthy? Not it does not. But 95 percent of households in the US make less than yours does. I don't know how much more plainly it can be put. You (like me in my similar circumstances) are upper class.

Yeah but the wage gap between the 95% and the 50% is multitudes closer than the 95% and 1%.

Someone making 300k/year is living a much closer lifestyle compared to a family making 125k/year than a family making $5M year with tons of investments etc. Also the family making 300k could become the family making 125k through some unfortunate circumstances. The 300k family is highly unlikely to ever make anywhere near the 1%.

300k is not that far from the 1%.

"According to the US Census Bureau's 2020 Current Population Survey, the percentage of American households with incomes of $300,000 or more is about 3.8%. This means that approximately 3.8% of American households have an annual income of at least $300,000 before taxes and other deductions.""

And 125K? That's about the 75th percentile.

Per the federal reserve, the top 1% of wealth starts with a NW of over 11M. If you just look at income it is $787,000. J stand by my assertion that a family making 300k is UMC and is much much closer to regular MC (and even the poor) than the 1%.

It’s stupid that the 99% are debating who is MC vs UMC vs UC when the reality is that everyone outside of the impoverished/working poor is some form of middle class (whether lower, middle, or upper) while the 1% are just hoarding their wealth and finding tax loop holes as we quibble over who deserves a few hundred extra tax for the child tax credit. Not to mention your place in the middle class isn’t necessarily stable. Today’s UMC could have a disabled child that requires a parent to leave the workforce and then become LMC.

But if want to think 2 fed salaries and an 80 year old home makes someone UC then I guess go ahead … I don’t think anyone else on this forum will remotely agree with you.

This is about right for the richistan definition. It starts around a certain NW (today it's 11mil) where you get entry level UC lifestyle I already described one can easily have with this wealth without having to work, only invest. Whether it buys you a lifestyle of the private jet/yacht crowd is irrelevant. Whether you may need to "budget" and choose a 4 star resort suite over the 5 star resort or couch tickets to fly a family of 5 to Europe vs. 1st class is irrelevant. You are trading luxury vacations for a nice primary home in an HCOL area and a second home and private schools, it's a choice. And lower UC still have to make choices just like middle UC have to make choices to either fund their favorite charity or a new startup but not both.

It's also absolutely on point when you say that our UMC are much closer to LMC than they are to richistan just because accumulation of even a few extra millions over the short horizon (not investing for 30 years) is a lot less plausible than a loss of job, or having to downscale one career and stagnating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper class you stay in the ritz or equivalent on vacations. UMC, you're staying at the JW Marriott or maybe a nice Westin. Upper class you regularly fly business or first class on your European vacation. UMC you're going to Europe but you're flying coach (maybe you cc points will upgrade you if you're lucky). Upper class you have a vacation home someplace nice like the hamptons or its equivalent. UMC, you vacation at the hamptons, but you stay in a nice air bnb.
Upper class-you bought your house in the nicest neighborhood that gets you into the best public schools, but your kid is going to private. UMC, you live near the upper class neighborhood and are zoned for the same great public schools, but private would be a stretch and if you swing for private, you're going to be staying the Courtyard Marriott on your local vacays from now on.

Nope. All this is still UMC. Upper class is private jets, yachts, and the ability to spend money at Chanel if you want.

People making $1mil can do all that, if they want to.

We have a $2m+ HHI and we do not fly on private jets and own yachts. We only recently started flying business class. We do stay at nice hotels.

I know we are technically rich but we feel very UMC. We are just rich enough to know not rich we are.

Some nice trolling there.

Not trolling. People with $1-2m HHI like the us and thr $1m NYC pp are not living lifestyles of the rich and famous. Yes, we can afford private schools, go on vacation, pay for college and live in a nice house.

Lifestyle of the rich and famous? Do you not understand that "rich" is also not one size fits all and there are tiers of rich just like there are tiers of middle class? You are at the lower entry point of UC, but you are still UC. I already explained how NW of 10 mil can give one UMC lifestyle without having to work and still live in a nice house and even own a second home, go on vacations, dine out and drive nice cars. Just because you choose to spend keeping up with the wealthier tiers of richistan where the sky is the limit (celebrities?) doesn't mean you are UMC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem here is the term "class" has as much to do with culture, connections, and family as it does it income. Most of the commenters here are really debating about levels of income or wealth (those terms are different but related) and not the broader term of class. However, even if using class as a proxy for wealth and income, there really needs to be a distinction between "wealthy" and truly upper class and all that comes with.

Who in the US would be upper class though? I can think of Chappy Morris. Who else?!

There is no upper class in the US. None.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet none of you would proudly crow that your child with the 98% average in school is solidly middle of the pack.

If the 20th through 98th percentile all had grades ranging from Bs to As and the top 2% had A++ grades then I would say the 98% kid is closer to the middle than the extreme.

And regardless classes are not defined by %. It’s defined by how income is divided up in this country. And since it is not nearly divided for each 1% you can’t just call 50% the “middle.”

Let's look at stock ownership.

89% of stock is owned by the wealthiest 10% of households, and 54% is owned by the top 1%.

So the top 1% own just over half the stock. Within that group are those on boards of directors etc.

The next 9% own a respectable 35% of stock. They aren't running the corporations or getting invited to private fundraising events in the Hamptons, but they're junior players in the game.

Those in the 50th-90th percentile own only about 10% of stock, and the lower 50th have virtually nothing.

This is why "we the 99%" makes no sense. 9% of the population owns more than 3 times the stock than 90% of the population, a group ten their size. There's a reason why we "commoners" don't really buy it when a $300K householder tries to tell us we're all in the same boat and she's really not all that different.

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/buying-stocks/articles/you-might-not-guess-the-amount-of-stocks-owned-by-the-1/

Who says "we are in the same boat"? Everyone understands that half of the people are living hand to mouth who own nothing and are one paycheck or a car repair away from getting an eviction notice or having to get in debt to buy essentials like food. But we are talking about upper tiers of middle class here. 300K HHI especially if a family with 2 incomes is not UC however you try to twist it around. And wealth isn't about earned income, it's about already accumulated assets that can produce income. There is no indication that a family making 300K today owns any stock or has a nice hefty 401k. You cannot look at salaries alone as this is a temporary construct, there is zero job security for most people outside of government jobs and maybe healthcare (maybe it's why this board is so hell bent on focusing on HHI).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet none of you would proudly crow that your child with the 98% average in school is solidly middle of the pack.

If the 20th through 98th percentile all had grades ranging from Bs to As and the top 2% had A++ grades then I would say the 98% kid is closer to the middle than the extreme.

And regardless classes are not defined by %. It’s defined by how income is divided up in this country. And since it is not nearly divided for each 1% you can’t just call 50% the “middle.”

Let's look at stock ownership.

89% of stock is owned by the wealthiest 10% of households, and 54% is owned by the top 1%.

So the top 1% own just over half the stock. Within that group are those on boards of directors etc.

The next 9% own a respectable 35% of stock. They aren't running the corporations or getting invited to private fundraising events in the Hamptons, but they're junior players in the game.

Those in the 50th-90th percentile own only about 10% of stock, and the lower 50th have virtually nothing.

This is why "we the 99%" makes no sense. 9% of the population owns more than 3 times the stock than 90% of the population, a group ten their size. There's a reason why we "commoners" don't really buy it when a $300K householder tries to tell us we're all in the same boat and she's really not all that different.

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/buying-stocks/articles/you-might-not-guess-the-amount-of-stocks-owned-by-the-1/

Sigh. You’re still wrong. This breakdown talks about the “wealthiest” people not people’s incomes. I guarantee you the top 9% of the wealthiest people in the U.S. make more than 300k per year.

Per a quick google search the federal reserve indicates that the top 10% of households have a NW of $2.7M. Maybe after many years of making 300k you can reach this level, but your average family of 4 paying for childcare and even median mortgage/rent for the area is not going to be part of that 10% especially if the household only recently broke 300k and/or there were student loans involved to get to that 300k income. Which is why it’s so insanely stupid to just look at the percentile breakdown of HHI in a vacuum without looking at overall NW and declaring the dual GS-14 household raising a couple young kids is “upper class” and I’m pretty sure the actual wealthy/UC would laugh if they heard this.