Middle class family being bamboozled with large "scholarships" from tier 5 LACs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP invented the term "tier 5 LAC" to just stress that these are non-selective privates.

Don't take things so literally, folks.

I didn't invent it. I googled liberal arts college tiers and a site had the two colleges they are visiting in tier 5. They are only visiting these colleges because they're getting bombarded with mail and emails promising large "scholarships". They do not have the $25,000+ a year they cost AFTER the scholarships. It is crazy to go into such debt for a college you'd NEVER look at! They had never heard of the two colleges prior to getting all the mailers!

Well it is stupid in any arena to be led by marketing.

Many families are pleasantly surprised to learn that their smart (but not top tier) student can attend a top 100 LAC for the price of their instate public.

My DD thrived in such a setting.

OP is an uninformed snob.

(Who should worry about military students being bamboozled by for-profit, online universities , being underwritten by our tax dollars)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Kid not good enough, huh? Sorry. So many benefits to college sports, playing at the next level, being a part of something and seeing it through. Don’t worry about these kids, they will go to great grad programs and have a sport community for a lifetime.

so, they have to spend even more money to get a good paying job? Even more bamboozling.

Most kids at LACs / SLACs go to grad school.

Nothing wrong with grad and professional school but taking on more debt and avoiding the real world is often a fallback because the LAC sucked and didn't prepare kids for the real world. There's practically zero on-campus recruiting at these podunk colleges. No career resources, no networking. Super shallow alum network. Nobody outside of the region has even heard of your low tier private college. You're totally on your own, up a creek, so many of these kids go to grad school to hold off on paying back undergrad loans and to tap better networking and career resources at a major R1. You need strong summer internships all four years, kids need to experience different cities, then they break out of the need to go to grad school – at least immediately after undergrad – unless absolutely required for their career goals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP invented the term "tier 5 LAC" to just stress that these are non-selective privates.

Don't take things so literally, folks.

I didn't invent it. I googled liberal arts college tiers and a site had the two colleges they are visiting in tier 5. They are only visiting these colleges because they're getting bombarded with mail and emails promising large "scholarships". They do not have the $25,000+ a year they cost AFTER the scholarships. It is crazy to go into such debt for a college you'd NEVER look at! They had never heard of the two colleges prior to getting all the mailers!

Well it is stupid in any arena to be led by marketing.

Many families are pleasantly surprised to learn that their smart (but not top tier) student can attend a top 100 LAC for the price of their instate public.

My DD thrived in such a setting.

OP is an uninformed snob.

(Who should worry about military students being bamboozled by for-profit, online universities , being underwritten by our tax dollars)

Tier 5 is not a top 100 US News (S)LAC. Tier 5 is unranked regional private colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

I am not aware of many D3 schools where it is all that difficult to play on club sports teams.

Hopefully, she picked the school for better reasons and that they even had a club soccer team (many D3 schools don't offer extensive club sports).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Not that difficult, but then not extensive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When my DCs were looking at colleges, I created a roadmap for the process based on spreadsheets. We researched school locations (benefits and drawbacks), the relative strengths of the departments they were interested in, internship opportunities, the strengths of the career centers including funding, graduation rates, endowments (measured per-student), sports opportunities including club sports and funding for them. We looked closely at the CDS for each school and ran NPCs.

We visited the schools they were most interested in (and they did overnights at a few) and they met with admissions officers and professors as well as (for one DC) a coach. Both DCs spoke with students, recent alums, and more established/non-recent alums about their experiences.

They applied and were accepted to a number of LACs (mostly in the Midwest) and chose the schools they thought best for each of them. Both are/were high performing students, so got a lot of merit aid, and both had excellent undergraduate experiences. Neither took on any undergraduate debt and both had e.g. great internships and funded research opportunities during their time in college. One of them published and presented a research paper at a national conference.

One DC attended a CTCL school that is often maligned on DCUM, and is in grad school (fully funded) now at MIT. The other graduated a few years ago from a different LAC ranked in the 40s and has a good job earning just over $100K and is applying to grad schools now.

But sure, we were "bamboozled."

Top 40 US News liberal arts college is selective, smart students, high graduation rate, and large endowment. Trinity College for example is #39 on US News. Great college. But we are talking Tier 5 private colleges, which are unranked regional private schools most have never heard of, with low admissions standards, low graduation rates, and many are on the brink of insolvency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, they have to spend even more money to get a good paying job? Even more bamboozling.

Tell us, is there some secret way to making millions as a BigLaw partner with only an undergraduate degree?

DP...no there is not some secret, but you do appreciate that there are many, many lawyers with tons of debt that are forced to just hang our a shingle or work for the small town plaintiff's firm...way more than the ones that have any chance of working at Kravath and then sticking around becoming partner.

Those are the kids that were "bamboozled" into attending a random law school.

So now we've gone from LACs to grad/professional schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

Can't basically anyone who played travel easily walk on a club team at a no-name lower rung D3? Don't mislead people and spin yarn about how your teen is going to college across the country to play a sport at the next level when they're going to play club, barely a step up from intramurals, at some bottom tier D3. Even the varsity teams at bottom tier D3s are mediocre.

Then you clearly do not follow NCAA D1-3 soccer with schools you've "never heard of" in the 2023 championship playoffs right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

I am not aware of many D3 schools where it is all that difficult to play on club sports teams.

Hopefully, she picked the school for better reasons and that they even had a club soccer team (many D3 schools don't offer extensive club sports).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Not that difficult, but then not extensive?

I don't think so. Obviously, if the kid wants to continue playing the sport in any capacity in college, they need to offer the sport (or the kid has to take the initiative to start a club soccer team). For the D3 schools that offer the sport, it really is not that hard to play club especially if a kid was playing a reasonably decent travel team for the last 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

Can't basically anyone who played travel easily walk on a club team at a no-name lower rung D3? Don't mislead people and spin yarn about how your teen is going to college across the country to play a sport at the next level when they're going to play club, barely a step up from intramurals, at some bottom tier D3. Even the varsity teams at bottom tier D3s are mediocre.

I don't know about bottom tier, but some club teams at NESAC schools could give the intercollegiate teams a good game if not beat them. At my school, the biggest difference between the club basketball team and the school's team was the amount of time spent practicing. The talent levels were pretty close

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I was just looking at the National Science Foundation report on the 50 colleges and universities with the highest rate of alums earning Ph.D.s in science and engineering. There are plenty middle-of-nowhere merit-aid LACs on that list, including a bunch that many DCUMers would dismiss as "no-name."

For example, Kalamazoo and Hendrix both rank higher on the list of S&E doctorates than Dartmouth, Columbia, Bowdoin, RPI, Rose-Hulman, and WUSTL. (Plenty of DCUM faves don't make the list at all.)

Meanwhile, over the last three years alone, Kalamazoo produced more student Fulbright scholars than several NESCACS, CMC, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and Case Western, among others. In the last 4 years, Hendrix appears to have produced more Watson Fellows than Bates, Williams, or Middlebury. Meanwhile, a kid can go to either of these schools for (literally) a third-to-half the cost of east coast LACs.

For the record, I don't have a kid at either of these schools, nor am I an alum. But I'm definitely paying attention. And if my LAC-inclined kid should wind up at either, I'd be delighted. Not because we've been "bamboozled," either.

I think the Tiers need to be defined...I would actually look at the total universe of LACs (let's just use the USNews universe) and then divide by 5. That probably puts 50 colleges into each Tier.

I know Kalamazoo and have heard good things about it. Is it really ranked say 200+? I will admit I have not heard of Hendrix (is it named after Jimi?).

No, a liberal arts college based in Arkansas. Worked with them years ago where they were generous with hosting refugee students - beyond generous. Always have a fond feeling about the school.

That’s good to hear. On paper, it sure hits a lot of marks for my kid, and the coa can’t be beat. Not the easiest visit though.

Look, this was decades ago, but I really admired how not just the college, but the community, extended itself on behalf of these young students. GL with your DC!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, they have to spend even more money to get a good paying job? Even more bamboozling.

Tell us, is there some secret way to making millions as a BigLaw partner with only an undergraduate degree?

DP...no there is not some secret, but you do appreciate that there are many, many lawyers with tons of debt that are forced to just hang our a shingle or work for the small town plaintiff's firm...way more than the ones that have any chance of working at Kravath and then sticking around becoming partner.

Those are the kids that were "bamboozled" into attending a random law school.

Now you're shifting the goalposts from "all grad school is a scam" to random law schools only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, they have to spend even more money to get a good paying job? Even more bamboozling.

Tell us, is there some secret way to making millions as a BigLaw partner with only an undergraduate degree?

Aggressive smart kids in 2023 who want to go to a hyper-competitive T14 law school and hyper-competitive "Big Law" career aren't going to podunk bottom tier private colleges nobody has heard of, where their average classmate is some nitwit who scored 1,100 on the SAT, and one-third of their class never graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

I am not aware of many D3 schools where it is all that difficult to play on club sports teams.

Hopefully, she picked the school for better reasons and that they even had a club soccer team (many D3 schools don't offer extensive club sports).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Not that difficult, but then not extensive?

I don't think so. Obviously, if the kid wants to continue playing the sport in any capacity in college, they need to offer the sport (or the kid has to take the initiative to start a club soccer team). For the D3 schools that offer the sport, it really is not that hard to play club especially if a kid was playing a reasonably decent travel team for the last 10 years.

But you say club offerings are not always extensive @ D3s, so it's not a lock that a kid can play.

Our DC played travel from 7 y.o. through HS. Decided early on in pandemic that they did not want to pursue recruiting. Travel team won state and went to nationals. HS team, where DC was more invested, then ended up winning local, regionals, and, ultimately, state. DC was then a little on the fence but had missed recruiting window and decided now to try as a walk on. DC is now at a LAC approved by the OP and school does not offer club. We've learned that the paucity of club teams @ D3 schools is not unusual.

I just don't get why folks are so judgy about this. Let the kids be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Wealthy parents trying to save face and not feel like they wasted ten plus years on travel sports, hotels, travel, lessons, etc. One wealthy couple we knew said their daughter was going to play soccer at an obscure D3 college in Boston. Turns out she is not even on the varsity team, she is only playing club soccer at the college.

That's not a waste if the child wanted to play and enjoyed soccer.

I am not aware of many D3 schools where it is all that difficult to play on club sports teams.

Hopefully, she picked the school for better reasons and that they even had a club soccer team (many D3 schools don't offer extensive club sports).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Not that difficult, but then not extensive?

I don't think so. Obviously, if the kid wants to continue playing the sport in any capacity in college, they need to offer the sport (or the kid has to take the initiative to start a club soccer team). For the D3 schools that offer the sport, it really is not that hard to play club especially if a kid was playing a reasonably decent travel team for the last 10 years.

But you say club offerings are not always extensive @ D3s, so it's not a lock that a kid can play.

Our DC played travel from 7 y.o. through HS. Decided early on in pandemic that they did not want to pursue recruiting. Travel team won state and went to nationals. HS team, where DC was more invested, then ended up winning local, regionals, and, ultimately, state. DC was then a little on the fence but had missed recruiting window and decided now to try as a walk on. DC is now at a LAC approved by the OP and school does not offer club. We've learned that the paucity of club teams @ D3 schools is not unusual.

I just don't get why folks are so judgy about this. Let the kids be.

Ok...I guess. If your kid really wants to play soccer in college, even if it is just club, I assume you would make sure the school offers club soccer.

I don't understand your post. It also seems that your LAC decision was not going to be dictated by LACs that offered club soccer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it so interesting that so many kids from my DC's public MCPS high school go to these no name D3 colleges to play a sport. It's not like they are getting a full scholarship. Just seems so short sighted to pick a school with low return on investment for the privilege of playing in a mediocre league for 4 years. Some of these kids could clearly get better educations for the same price.

Kid not good enough, huh? Sorry. So many benefits to college sports, playing at the next level, being a part of something and seeing it through. Don’t worry about these kids, they will go to great grad programs and have a sport community for a lifetime.

so, they have to spend even more money to get a good paying job? Even more bamboozling.

Most kids at LACs / SLACs go to grad school.

Nothing wrong with grad and professional school but taking on more debt and avoiding the real world is often a fallback because the LAC sucked and didn't prepare kids for the real world. There's practically zero on-campus recruiting at these podunk colleges. No career resources, no networking. Super shallow alum network. Nobody outside of the region has even heard of your low tier private college. You're totally on your own, up a creek, so many of these kids go to grad school to hold off on paying back undergrad loans and to tap better networking and career resources at a major R1. You need strong summer internships all four years, kids need to experience different cities, then they break out of the need to go to grad school – at least immediately after undergrad – unless absolutely required for their career goals.

Are you speaking from experience? Because most people who attend these podunk schools live in the regions in which the colleges are located and often want to remain there, so networking with local/regional businesses as well as alums makes total sense.

Has it occurred to you that not everybody wants to pursue the same career path as you did/want for your DC?