Why America stopped building public pools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see the legacy of racism all around me in NoVA. The private pool thing is sad to consider, given how much we love our local pool club. Interestingly our pool is one of the few in the area that doesn’t have a geographical limitation on who can join … so maybe the founders were a little more progressive, or maybe one of the successor boards was. Back in the 50’s, neighborhoods were way more segregated due to redlining etc. It is just a fact that public pools closed after segregation, and people created private clubs to keep others out. It’s not allowed now but there’s definitely a legacy to overcome and institutional norms need review to make sure they aren’t perpetuating old biases, like pool bylaws and swim league policies. It seems like these are insignificant things, but they can have big impacts in your very local community. These are the best kinds of things to care about in my opinion.

All of the people saying, oh, well I grew up in a 100% white area and had no public pools are proving the point.

Why should I pay for other people’s pools? Why should yet another thing that has no relevance to me or anyone I know be paid for by me?

Did anyone say you should?

The article simply gives an explanation about why people stopped wanting to pay for them when they used to have no problem with it. After desegregation, white people moved out of DC into NoVA, and built neighborhoods and pool clubs that excluded black people. It’s interesting history and something to consider if you belong to a pool built around that time. If the county had invested in public pools they would have had to be integrated, and the white people here at the time were NOT on board with that. So we have what we have. Worth looking at any policies your HOA, pool or swim programs might have that seem to create any barriers for people of color in any event. They could be leftovers from that time.

I realize this is way too thoughtful and reflective for most people here though who prefer to bury their heads in the sand on these issues.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see the legacy of racism all around me in NoVA. The private pool thing is sad to consider, given how much we love our local pool club. Interestingly our pool is one of the few in the area that doesn’t have a geographical limitation on who can join … so maybe the founders were a little more progressive, or maybe one of the successor boards was. Back in the 50’s, neighborhoods were way more segregated due to redlining etc. It is just a fact that public pools closed after segregation, and people created private clubs to keep others out. It’s not allowed now but there’s definitely a legacy to overcome and institutional norms need review to make sure they aren’t perpetuating old biases, like pool bylaws and swim league policies. It seems like these are insignificant things, but they can have big impacts in your very local community. These are the best kinds of things to care about in my opinion.

All of the people saying, oh, well I grew up in a 100% white area and had no public pools are proving the point.

Why should I pay for other people’s pools? Why should yet another thing that has no relevance to me or anyone I know be paid for by me?

Why should we pay for libraries or parks or schools? And couldn't we all just contract our own preferred trash haulers, plow our own roads? There are communities that operate this way. There are places where the fire department covers you if you pay a fee.

The reality is that everyone can point to a government function that they don't want or need. But in total, communities need them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I do see the legacy of racism all around me in NoVA. The private pool thing is sad to consider, given how much we love our local pool club. Interestingly our pool is one of the few in the area that doesn’t have a geographical limitation on who can join … so maybe the founders were a little more progressive, or maybe one of the successor boards was. Back in the 50’s, neighborhoods were way more segregated due to redlining etc. It is just a fact that public pools closed after segregation, and people created private clubs to keep others out. It’s not allowed now but there’s definitely a legacy to overcome and institutional norms need review to make sure they aren’t perpetuating old biases, like pool bylaws and swim league policies. It seems like these are insignificant things, but they can have big impacts in your very local community. These are the best kinds of things to care about in my opinion.

All of the people saying, oh, well I grew up in a 100% white area and had no public pools are proving the point.


Why should I pay for other people’s pools? Why should yet another thing that has no relevance to me or anyone I know be paid for by me?

I don't get this. It has relevance to you if people around you are physically fit, can provide first responder services, and can provide for the defense of this country. Parks, pools, gyms, rec centers are all part of the providing for the general welfare. If you cannot see more than just yourself or "anyone you know", you live in a very small world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see the legacy of racism all around me in NoVA. The private pool thing is sad to consider, given how much we love our local pool club. Interestingly our pool is one of the few in the area that doesn’t have a geographical limitation on who can join … so maybe the founders were a little more progressive, or maybe one of the successor boards was. Back in the 50’s, neighborhoods were way more segregated due to redlining etc. It is just a fact that public pools closed after segregation, and people created private clubs to keep others out. It’s not allowed now but there’s definitely a legacy to overcome and institutional norms need review to make sure they aren’t perpetuating old biases, like pool bylaws and swim league policies. It seems like these are insignificant things, but they can have big impacts in your very local community. These are the best kinds of things to care about in my opinion.

All of the people saying, oh, well I grew up in a 100% white area and had no public pools are proving the point.

Why should I pay for other people’s pools? Why should yet another thing that has no relevance to me or anyone I know be paid for by me?

Did anyone say you should?

The article simply gives an explanation about why people stopped wanting to pay for them when they used to have no problem with it. After desegregation, white people moved out of DC into NoVA, and built neighborhoods and pool clubs that excluded black people. It’s interesting history and something to consider if you belong to a pool built around that time. If the county had invested in public pools they would have had to be integrated, and the white people here at the time were NOT on board with that. So we have what we have. Worth looking at any policies your HOA, pool or swim programs might have that seem to create any barriers for people of color in any event. They could be leftovers from that time.

I realize this is way too thoughtful and reflective for most people here though who prefer to bury their heads in the sand on these issues.

Except it isn't very thoughtful. You are framing these decisions through an extremely narrow lens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blah blah blah. For some people everything is about racism. Whatever.

Baltimore has public pools. City has been dominated by black politicians and leaders since the 70s. But doesn't prevent the city from keeping pools closed. Let's still blame it on racism.

No one is talking about Baltimore except for you. We’re mostly talking about Virginia. You know, the state where the Confederacy had its Capitol? Come on. When I moved here from a different part of the country the whole private pool club thing was new to me! We had community pools and beaches. We also had a lot of gated communities with their own pools. Never really thought about it until moving here and learning about all of the public pools that closed in the south after legal segregation ended.

Most of NOVA didn’t even exist during segregation.

That said there wasn’t a large black community within 30 miles of where I grew up and there were never any public pools, let alone private pool clubs.

Sort of. Quite a lot of NoVa existed during segregation — albeit in a different form. The NoVa that developed in the 70’s and beyond was in direct response to desegregation in DC which changed the MD suburbs and significantly changed the VA suburbs. White flight built up the Virginia suburbs, and many facilities were developed to accommodate that.

The private pools and swimming clubs in NoVa and MD were a direct response to that — even as places like Columbia were being created with ideals and facilities that were designed to support more integrated communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was recently in CA- every school there had an outdoor pool- most had 2 or even 3. In NoVa, there was an agreement that the pools would be in the Rec centers. Anyone can go there to swim. Anyone can join NCAP.

I lived in NE - we didn’t have public pools, I learned to swim in a lake. We could join a swim team, like here in Fairfax, we just had to pay $ to join the team and get to practice.

I would not crow about NoVA.

DC has 23 outdoor pools and 12 Aquatic Centers, serving 712,000 people. Fairfax County has 0 outdoor pools and 10 aquatic centers, serving 1.1 million people.

That is the legacy of racism. Clearly FFX only built the pools necessary for lap sports, with no recreational pools included. They see no need because the historically white communities built their private pools. Same is true of Arlington. They have 3 high school pools built in the 70s, and only recently did they build the first aquatics center. No recreational pools, but a bunch of private pools that I'm pretty sure were mostly built in the mid-50s.

Thank you for putting this so succinctly. I can't tell if some of the posters genuinely don't understand/know the history or if they refuse to believe it.

It's totally ok now to know or understand history. I sure didn't understand this part of US history until I was well into adulthood. I certainly was never taught about all the various racially discriminatory practices at play in the US, or their after-effects, in school. The article someone just posted is from 2004. I didn't live here in 2004. I learned this year that Luther Jackson Middle School used to be the black high school when I Googled it after my kid's sports practice. I didn't know when I was bussed across town in grade school in the 70's and 80's it was because my hometown school district was under a consent decree from a civil rights lawsuit for failure to integrate. Just because no one talked to you about this when you were growing up doesn't mean it's not real.

I don't know where you went to school, but we were all taught about civil rights issues in history class like busing, redlining, etc. Not a single thing you or anyone else has noted in this thread is anything new.

I went to school in Texas. Robert E. Lee Senior high school, to be exact. We were not taught anything about redlining or busing. Don't assume your experience is everyone's experience.

[Anonymous]

In the 90's the public pools I grew up near were always packed. If they were close to communities of color, they were often packed on weekends. Now though local pools seem to have a lot fewer people. The apartment pools I drive by don't have many kids in them. I think phone/tech use has really done a number on this generation. They would rather be on the phones than hanging outside with friends. The state parks with lakes though are definitely packed though. They are family friendly, affordable, and allow families to grab big tables and watchover little ones more comfortably than at pools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the 90's the public pools I grew up near were always packed. If they were close to communities of color, they were often packed on weekends. Now though local pools seem to have a lot fewer people. The apartment pools I drive by don't have many kids in them. I think phone/tech use has really done a number on this generation. They would rather be on the phones than hanging outside with friends. The state parks with lakes though are definitely packed though. They are family friendly, affordable, and allow families to grab big tables and watchover little ones more comfortably than at pools.

Nothing in your post is at all relevant to this thread, but thanks for stopping by I guess?

[Anonymous]

The DMV has more swim teams per capita than any other metro area. There may not be as many outdoor pools as there are in places like Florida or California, but that's because the weather and environment make that difficult. DC gets very cold in winter, which jeopardizes the water lines that go into pools to keep them continuously filled. It has 2 leaf, pollen, and dirt filled seasons in spring and fall, which means not just more chemical cleaning but also more manual cleaning.

So:
1) the idea that DC area kids are deprived of pool time seems at odds with the fact that there are more swim team kids in the DC area than any other metro area. To take this even further-- they aren't just on swim teams, they are absolutely dominating. NCAP has more swimmers awarded swim scholarships than any other team in the US. The only 2 true swim celebrities are Phelps and Ledecky. This area is not deprived of pools, they are just structured differently.

2) having mostly outdoor pools would actually limit swim time unless a "bubble" were constructed over them to keep them indoors 9-10 months per year, due to the repair costs that would come from trying to maintain a large outdoor pool in a 4 season climate with harsh weather.

You have to know very little about DC swim, and very little about pool maintenance, to think that racism is the most obvious reason for DC area pools being indoors.

Before you jump in and say only rich kids can afford swim teams, most of these swim teams have fee waivers for those unable to pay. Face it, the DC area has pool privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see the legacy of racism all around me in NoVA. The private pool thing is sad to consider, given how much we love our local pool club. Interestingly our pool is one of the few in the area that doesn’t have a geographical limitation on who can join … so maybe the founders were a little more progressive, or maybe one of the successor boards was. Back in the 50’s, neighborhoods were way more segregated due to redlining etc. It is just a fact that public pools closed after segregation, and people created private clubs to keep others out. It’s not allowed now but there’s definitely a legacy to overcome and institutional norms need review to make sure they aren’t perpetuating old biases, like pool bylaws and swim league policies. It seems like these are insignificant things, but they can have big impacts in your very local community. These are the best kinds of things to care about in my opinion.

All of the people saying, oh, well I grew up in a 100% white area and had no public pools are proving the point.

Why should I pay for other people’s pools? Why should yet another thing that has no relevance to me or anyone I know be paid for by me?

Did anyone say you should?

The article simply gives an explanation about why people stopped wanting to pay for them when they used to have no problem with it. After desegregation, white people moved out of DC into NoVA, and built neighborhoods and pool clubs that excluded black people. It’s interesting history and something to consider if you belong to a pool built around that time. If the county had invested in public pools they would have had to be integrated, and the white people here at the time were NOT on board with that. So we have what we have. Worth looking at any policies your HOA, pool or swim programs might have that seem to create any barriers for people of color in any event. They could be leftovers from that time.

I realize this is way too thoughtful and reflective for most people here though who prefer to bury their heads in the sand on these issues.

Except it isn't very thoughtful. You are framing these decisions through an extremely narrow lens.

Sure Jan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DMV has more swim teams per capita than any other metro area. There may not be as many outdoor pools as there are in places like Florida or California, but that's because the weather and environment make that difficult. DC gets very cold in winter, which jeopardizes the water lines that go into pools to keep them continuously filled. It has 2 leaf, pollen, and dirt filled seasons in spring and fall, which means not just more chemical cleaning but also more manual cleaning.

So:
1) the idea that DC area kids are deprived of pool time seems at odds with the fact that there are more swim team kids in the DC area than any other metro area. To take this even further-- they aren't just on swim teams, they are absolutely dominating. NCAP has more swimmers awarded swim scholarships than any other team in the US. The only 2 true swim celebrities are Phelps and Ledecky. This area is not deprived of pools, they are just structured differently.

2) having mostly outdoor pools would actually limit swim time unless a "bubble" were constructed over them to keep them indoors 9-10 months per year, due to the repair costs that would come from trying to maintain a large outdoor pool in a 4 season climate with harsh weather.

You have to know very little about DC swim, and very little about pool maintenance, to think that racism is the most obvious reason for DC area pools being indoors.

Before you jump in and say only rich kids can afford swim teams, most of these swim teams have fee waivers for those unable to pay. Face it, the DC area has pool privilege.

Did you read the article?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The DMV has more swim teams per capita than any other metro area. There may not be as many outdoor pools as there are in places like Florida or California, but that's because the weather and environment make that difficult. DC gets very cold in winter, which jeopardizes the water lines that go into pools to keep them continuously filled. It has 2 leaf, pollen, and dirt filled seasons in spring and fall, which means not just more chemical cleaning but also more manual cleaning.

So:
1) the idea that DC area kids are deprived of pool time seems at odds with the fact that there are more swim team kids in the DC area than any other metro area. To take this even further-- they aren't just on swim teams, they are absolutely dominating. NCAP has more swimmers awarded swim scholarships than any other team in the US. The only 2 true swim celebrities are Phelps and Ledecky. This area is not deprived of pools, they are just structured differently.

2) having mostly outdoor pools would actually limit swim time unless a "bubble" were constructed over them to keep them indoors 9-10 months per year, due to the repair costs that would come from trying to maintain a large outdoor pool in a 4 season climate with harsh weather.

You have to know very little about DC swim, and very little about pool maintenance, to think that racism is the most obvious reason for DC area pools being indoors.

Before you jump in and say only rich kids can afford swim teams, most of these swim teams have fee waivers for those unable to pay. Face it, the DC area has pool privilege.

Did you read the article?

Did you? The article did not discuss or address any of my points. Or are you saying we can only discuss this in the framing used by the article? What are you, the White House?.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The DMV has more swim teams per capita than any other metro area. There may not be as many outdoor pools as there are in places like Florida or California, but that's because the weather and environment make that difficult. DC gets very cold in winter, which jeopardizes the water lines that go into pools to keep them continuously filled. It has 2 leaf, pollen, and dirt filled seasons in spring and fall, which means not just more chemical cleaning but also more manual cleaning.

So:
1) the idea that DC area kids are deprived of pool time seems at odds with the fact that there are more swim team kids in the DC area than any other metro area. To take this even further-- they aren't just on swim teams, they are absolutely dominating. NCAP has more swimmers awarded swim scholarships than any other team in the US. The only 2 true swim celebrities are Phelps and Ledecky. This area is not deprived of pools, they are just structured differently.

2) having mostly outdoor pools would actually limit swim time unless a "bubble" were constructed over them to keep them indoors 9-10 months per year, due to the repair costs that would come from trying to maintain a large outdoor pool in a 4 season climate with harsh weather.

You have to know very little about DC swim, and very little about pool maintenance, to think that racism is the most obvious reason for DC area pools being indoors.

Before you jump in and say only rich kids can afford swim teams, most of these swim teams have fee waivers for those unable to pay. Face it, the DC area has pool privilege.

Did you read the article?

Did you? The article did not discuss or address any of my points. Or are you saying we can only discuss this in the framing used by the article? What are you, the White House?.

I’m saying your comment has nothing to do with the original post or subsequent discussion. You mention “structure”. Interesting word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.