Why America stopped building public pools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

You haven't made the case that private pools are discriminatory. Let's take the Stonegate swim team as an example. For years, they've had one of the highest rated swim clubs in MCSL, at their private pool. And, they are less than a mile from the MLK swim center, a public indoor pool with a branch of RMSC. This is in a primarily black and Hispanic neighborhood. The swimmers are most white. Explain.

I’m in VA and the swim teams, inlcluding ours, are overwhelmingly white with some Asian families. I can think of one family that is mixed race, and one Black family that joined the team this summer. Both families have girls in an age group that is particularly cliquey. It’s pretty obvious if you spend any time around the team events that the girls from these families are left out of the clique. The girls in the new family are quite fast and if they swim this winter will probably start beating some of the girls in the clique. This is not going to go over well at all with the queen bee mom who has said casually racist things in the past. I feel for this family because they certainly don’t deserve the treatment they are likely to start getting. I can only imagine this dynamic plays out at other pools in the area. I would certainly choose to stay away if I were made to feel as unwelcome as these families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

You haven't made the case that private pools are discriminatory. Let's take the Stonegate swim team as an example. For years, they've had one of the highest rated swim clubs in MCSL, at their private pool. And, they are less than a mile from the MLK swim center, a public indoor pool with a branch of RMSC. This is in a primarily black and Hispanic neighborhood. The swimmers are most white. Explain.

I’m in VA and the swim teams, inlcluding ours, are overwhelmingly white with some Asian families. I can think of one family that is mixed race, and one Black family that joined the team this summer. Both families have girls in an age group that is particularly cliquey. It’s pretty obvious if you spend any time around the team events that the girls from these families are left out of the clique. The girls in the new family are quite fast and if they swim this winter will probably start beating some of the girls in the clique. This is not going to go over well at all with the queen bee mom who has said casually racist things in the past. I feel for this family because they certainly don’t deserve the treatment they are likely to start getting. I can only imagine this dynamic plays out at other pools in the area. I would certainly choose to stay away if I were made to feel as unwelcome as these families.

Seems like an easy fix for something that hasn’t happened yet. Don’t let it. If you see that kind of behavior, you need to be an advocate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

Libraries? Sports fields? Parks? Come
On.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

Libraries? Sports fields? Parks? Come
On.

Roads, brudges, school, libraries, and parks imho do not equate to pools and ballfields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

Libraries? Sports fields? Parks? Come
On.

Roads, brudges, school, libraries, and parks imho do not equate to pools and ballfields.

So? Are you just here to talk about your Randia. utopia? Voters in many places like funding public pools and ball fields. You don’t have to like it.

[Anonymous]

Pg pool members in full force here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Move to Reston - 16 public pools for the community. Not free, but at $25.00 per season, it is doable.

Kudos. Reston, as well as Columbia which was mentioned upthread, were historic notable exceptions to the typical pattern of racial segregation in suburban neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

Libraries? Sports fields? Parks? Come
On.

Roads, brudges, school, libraries, and parks imho do not equate to pools and ballfields.

So? Are you just here to talk about your Randia. utopia? Voters in many places like funding public pools and ball fields. You don’t have to like it.

And voters in many places don't like funding them. You don't have to like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

Just so there’s an echo here: local parks, state parks, national parks, local, state, and national sports competitions, states where the highest paid state employee is a coach…. We can argue about all if those things, and whether it’s in the interests of governments to have and to encourage educated physically fit citizens — if only to have enough of them to meet military recruiting goals. There are arguments for the role of pools supporting health and safety. (Yeah, I lived in an area where pools were rare and access to water was easy and often accidental. More than a few preventable drownings that basic water safety skills might have prevented. )

tldr: Governments collect taxes. Taxes should provide services and resources to the community. Pools and other recreational facilities count.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

For the same reasons they build roads and schools and other things the people want them to build. Do you think you are clever?

Roads and schools do not equate with pools.

DP. Why not? And why is the highest paid state employee in some states often a coach?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

Just so there’s an echo here: local parks, state parks, national parks, local, state, and national sports competitions, states where the highest paid state employee is a coach…. We can argue about all if those things, and whether it’s in the interests of governments to have and to encourage educated physically fit citizens — if only to have enough of them to meet military recruiting goals. There are arguments for the role of pools supporting health and safety. (Yeah, I lived in an area where pools were rare and access to water was easy and often accidental. More than a few preventable drownings that basic water safety skills might have prevented. )

tldr: Governments collect taxes. Taxes should provide services and resources to the community. Pools and other recreational facilities count.

Taxes are for the legitimate functions of govt. Providing you swimming pools doesn't apply.

Don't like your situation? Move and join an HOA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

Just so there’s an echo here: local parks, state parks, national parks, local, state, and national sports competitions, states where the highest paid state employee is a coach…. We can argue about all if those things, and whether it’s in the interests of governments to have and to encourage educated physically fit citizens — if only to have enough of them to meet military recruiting goals. There are arguments for the role of pools supporting health and safety. (Yeah, I lived in an area where pools were rare and access to water was easy and often accidental. More than a few preventable drownings that basic water safety skills might have prevented. )

tldr: Governments collect taxes. Taxes should provide services and resources to the community. Pools and other recreational facilities count.

Taxes are for the legitimate functions of govt. Providing you swimming pools doesn't apply.

Don't like your situation? Move and join an HOA.

And what do you view as “legitimate functions of government?”

Rec centers? Schools? Should schools have gym classes? Sports? Spirts facilities? Where exactly are you drawing the line?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are governments at any level involved in the pool business?

Just so there’s an echo here: local parks, state parks, national parks, local, state, and national sports competitions, states where the highest paid state employee is a coach…. We can argue about all if those things, and whether it’s in the interests of governments to have and to encourage educated physically fit citizens — if only to have enough of them to meet military recruiting goals. There are arguments for the role of pools supporting health and safety. (Yeah, I lived in an area where pools were rare and access to water was easy and often accidental. More than a few preventable drownings that basic water safety skills might have prevented. )

tldr: Governments collect taxes. Taxes should provide services and resources to the community. Pools and other recreational facilities count.

Taxes are for the legitimate functions of govt. Providing you swimming pools doesn't apply.

Don't like your situation? Move and join an HOA.

And what do you view as “legitimate functions of government?”

Rec centers? Schools? Should schools have gym classes? Sports? Spirts facilities? Where exactly are you drawing the line?

that’s: SPORTS facilities