Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

Add 11-12 to that - arguably the worst age up for bad swim birthdays. A kid 7 days into 11 swims against kids 7 days before 13 ….for the championship meets of the season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

Add 11-12 to that - arguably the worst age up for bad swim birthdays. A kid 7 days into 11 swims against kids 7 days before 13 ….for the championship meets of the season.

Yep! Brutal.

If they are going to have huge championship meets that are the season focus they should not handle age-ups this way. There should be some sort of cutoff that if your birthday is after x date (maybe Jan. 1, since you have been training with your age group the whole regular season), you compete in that age for SC champs. If meets were equally important throughout the year that would be a different story. Honestly I think the best solution is to not have all-important champs at a single time of year for age groupers. It changes as they get older and performance is not so age- dependent.

[Anonymous]

^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

Add 11-12 to that - arguably the worst age up for bad swim birthdays. A kid 7 days into 11 swims against kids 7 days before 13 ….for the championship meets of the season.

Yep. My kid has a May 31 birthday and his best friend is June 2 so they swim in different age groups. He just turns 11 and swims against 13 yr olds with summer bdays. With boys and puberty the size difference can be huge. He cares more about making All-Stars than the PVS Championship meet where he has 8 cuts but is unlikely to ever get an All-Star time or LC champs. I think August bdays (after Zones) are the best.

[Anonymous]

Those who think the USA swimming rule is fair obviously have kids who are unaffected by the misfortune of having a late January-early March birthday. Many clubs put undue emphasis on end of season champs, especially short course, even at young ages. Qualifying for these meets can affect group placement, swimmer recognition, travel opportunities, etc etc. when you have a swimmer who ages up a few days or weeks before these important meets, you have put them in a situation where they are training all season with an appropriate age group, meeting appropriate goals, but then suddenly removed from all the opportunities their peers will enjoy because they were born a week or two earlier. In all other youth sports, there is a cutoff date and the purpose of that is to keep peer groups together, training at appropriate levels and not having to suddenly jump to a whole new team/training group with much higher standards mid-season on the DAY of their birthday. They should either use a seasonal cutoff date or do away with championship meets for age group swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those who think the USA swimming rule is fair obviously have kids who are unaffected by the misfortune of having a late January-early March birthday. Many clubs put undue emphasis on end of season champs, especially short course, even at young ages. Qualifying for these meets can affect group placement, swimmer recognition, travel opportunities, etc etc. when you have a swimmer who ages up a few days or weeks before these important meets, you have put them in a situation where they are training all season with an appropriate age group, meeting appropriate goals, but then suddenly removed from all the opportunities their peers will enjoy because they were born a week or two earlier. In all other youth sports, there is a cutoff date and the purpose of that is to keep peer groups together, training at appropriate levels and not having to suddenly jump to a whole new team/training group with much higher standards mid-season on the DAY of their birthday. They should either use a seasonal cutoff date or do away with championship meets for age group swimmers.

So, because your kid does not have a prime birthday for short course champs, no one should be able to compete? Come on. The sports with the cutoff date are team sports and it is not conducive to a successful team to have moving parts during a season. A basketball or soccer team need to practice and work together as a unit, swimmers do not. Our training groups are both age and ability based, there are kids from multiple age groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

Nope. It’s not about disadvantaging someone else. It’s about consistency and not disadvantaging anyone.

Do you really think an 11 yr +2 months is very different from a 10 yr 11 months? The 10 year old with an April birthday is 10 yr+11 mos swimming against 9 yr+0 mos currently. Is that more fair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

Nope. It’s not about disadvantaging someone else. It’s about consistency and not disadvantaging anyone.

Do you really think an 11 yr +2 months is very different from a 10 yr 11 months? The 10 year old with an April birthday is 10 yr+11 mos swimming against 9 yr+0 mos currently. Is that more fair?

Oh please, it absolutely is about disadvantaging someone else as long as that someone is not your kid. It’s an individual sport that is divided by age group categories, there is no reason to swim as anything other than your actual age.

[Anonymous]

I've got a kid with a late February birthday. He treats the December championship meets as his "JOs."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

Nope. It’s not about disadvantaging someone else. It’s about consistency and not disadvantaging anyone.

Do you really think an 11 yr +2 months is very different from a 10 yr 11 months? The 10 year old with an April birthday is 10 yr+11 mos swimming against 9 yr+0 mos currently. Is that more fair?

Oh please, it absolutely is about disadvantaging someone else as long as that someone is not your kid. It’s an individual sport that is divided by age group categories, there is no reason to swim as anything other than your actual age.

Who is it disadvantaging? Please do tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those who think the USA swimming rule is fair obviously have kids who are unaffected by the misfortune of having a late January-early March birthday. Many clubs put undue emphasis on end of season champs, especially short course, even at young ages. Qualifying for these meets can affect group placement, swimmer recognition, travel opportunities, etc etc. when you have a swimmer who ages up a few days or weeks before these important meets, you have put them in a situation where they are training all season with an appropriate age group, meeting appropriate goals, but then suddenly removed from all the opportunities their peers will enjoy because they were born a week or two earlier. In all other youth sports, there is a cutoff date and the purpose of that is to keep peer groups together, training at appropriate levels and not having to suddenly jump to a whole new team/training group with much higher standards mid-season on the DAY of their birthday. They should either use a seasonal cutoff date or do away with championship meets for age group swimmers.

So, because your kid does not have a prime birthday for short course champs, no one should be able to compete? Come on. The sports with the cutoff date are team sports and it is not conducive to a successful team to have moving parts during a season. A basketball or soccer team need to practice and work together as a unit, swimmers do not. Our training groups are both age and ability based, there are kids from multiple age groups.

No. There should not be “champs” that are the training focus of the entire season when the results of that champs meet are based primarily on the relative age of the swimmer and the same kids have a massive disadvantage every single year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

Nope. It’s not about disadvantaging someone else. It’s about consistency and not disadvantaging anyone.

Do you really think an 11 yr +2 months is very different from a 10 yr 11 months? The 10 year old with an April birthday is 10 yr+11 mos swimming against 9 yr+0 mos currently. Is that more fair?

Oh please, it absolutely is about disadvantaging someone else as long as that someone is not your kid. It’s an individual sport that is divided by age group categories, there is no reason to swim as anything other than your actual age.

Who is it disadvantaging? Please do tell.

Are you really that obtuse? You know damn well that allowing kids who turn 11 in January to race as 10 and unders in mid to late March disadvantages the spring birthday kids who would otherwise be in line to make finals, be on relays, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and this is why it’s easy to see who has a kid without a Feb/early March bday when they argue it’s equitable the way it is. I get that they need some kind of cut off but to say it’s fair is wrong. If it is so fair, then do it for summer swim and kids age up mid season. The same relay problem happens during club swimming when a kid ages up…so that’s the same problem year round.

The summer swim argument is a completely different issue. It’s like an 8 week season and a PITA to deal with aging kids up on their birthdays, although in theory I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Relays are a fun part of the big club meets but they mean nothing and often the kids swimming the relays are from all different sites of a club and may have never met each other before that day. In a true individual sport like club swim is, you can’t have a kid that turned 11 in January swimming 10 and under events in mid/late March. Your argument really boils down to wanting to disadvantage someone other than your February/March birthday kid.

Nope. It’s not about disadvantaging someone else. It’s about consistency and not disadvantaging anyone.

Do you really think an 11 yr +2 months is very different from a 10 yr 11 months? The 10 year old with an April birthday is 10 yr+11 mos swimming against 9 yr+0 mos currently. Is that more fair?

Oh please, it absolutely is about disadvantaging someone else as long as that someone is not your kid. It’s an individual sport that is divided by age group categories, there is no reason to swim as anything other than your actual age.

Who is it disadvantaging? Please do tell.

Are you really that obtuse? You know damn well that allowing kids who turn 11 in January to race as 10 and unders in mid to late March disadvantages the spring birthday kids who would otherwise be in line to make finals, be on relays, etc.

Are YOU serious? You’re talking about kids who are 3 months apart in age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those who think the USA swimming rule is fair obviously have kids who are unaffected by the misfortune of having a late January-early March birthday. Many clubs put undue emphasis on end of season champs, especially short course, even at young ages. Qualifying for these meets can affect group placement, swimmer recognition, travel opportunities, etc etc. when you have a swimmer who ages up a few days or weeks before these important meets, you have put them in a situation where they are training all season with an appropriate age group, meeting appropriate goals, but then suddenly removed from all the opportunities their peers will enjoy because they were born a week or two earlier. In all other youth sports, there is a cutoff date and the purpose of that is to keep peer groups together, training at appropriate levels and not having to suddenly jump to a whole new team/training group with much higher standards mid-season on the DAY of their birthday. They should either use a seasonal cutoff date or do away with championship meets for age group swimmers.

So, because your kid does not have a prime birthday for short course champs, no one should be able to compete? Come on. The sports with the cutoff date are team sports and it is not conducive to a successful team to have moving parts during a season. A basketball or soccer team need to practice and work together as a unit, swimmers do not. Our training groups are both age and ability based, there are kids from multiple age groups.

No. There should not be “champs” that are the training focus of the entire season when the results of that champs meet are based primarily on the relative age of the swimmer and the same kids have a massive disadvantage every single year.

The swim season is 10-11 months long. There are champs meets in December, March and July for age groupers. It sounds like you are just hyper focused on the March champs meets.