Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you really want to dive into fairness in swimming here is a great read:

http://www.swimtheory.com/home/003-qualifying-times

That was the dumbest thing I ever spent 15 minutes of my life reading, and I hang out here. The first part acknowledges cut times are set to get a goal number of athletes. Part two acknowledges there are more girls then boys participating. Then pages of handwringing about why a smaller percentage of girls can participate. Uh, see your own part 1?

ha- I had the same reaction. At bottom, while dressed up with overally complicated statistical analysis, he is claiming 'unfairness' to girls b/c more girls participate in swimming than boys and thus it is harder as a girl to be in the top percentile of swimming as it is for a boy.
There are more boys than girls that play rec basketball. The rec league does an all-star game for which the top players in the league are selected to play. 30 boys play in the boys game and 30 girls play in the girls game. Because there are many many more boys teams than girls team in order to play on the boys all-star team you have to be the top 1-2 players on your regular team. Whereas the girls all star team takes the top 3 players on each time. Does that mean the all star selection is inherently unfair to boys? Of course not- it means the competition is stiffer. The same thing with championship meets- the selection is not inherently unfair to girls, the competition is stiffer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you really want to dive into fairness in swimming here is a great read:

http://www.swimtheory.com/home/003-qualifying-times

That was the dumbest thing I ever spent 15 minutes of my life reading, and I hang out here. The first part acknowledges cut times are set to get a goal number of athletes. Part two acknowledges there are more girls then boys participating. Then pages of handwringing about why a smaller percentage of girls can participate. Uh, see your own part 1?

Does the author have a girl? Times are about percentages/math and so if you have more participating in a population they will be tougher to cut the chaff.

Yeah, it's pretty clear from the website and the author's twitter that they have girl athletes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most of the fast kids hit the following age group standards? My kid was always focused on the next age group up). My 11/12 year old has the 14 year old JO cuts and is a decently fast but nothing amazing.

Yes. My fast 10U has already hit the 11/12 JO cuts.

Um, no. That would be a truly exceptional 10U to do that. Take 100 Free. The 11-12 cut is 1:02.39. In all of PVS this year, five 10U boys have that time.

You do know that JOs is not a meet that every average swimmer is supposed to swim, right? They set the cuts fast to manage the size of the meet. My February bday 9/10 will be working hard next year to make cuts as a just-turned-10-year-old. He’ll probably make it in some and not in others. And that’s ok, because there are other meets at different times of the year where he will dominate.

The comment above asked that "Don't most of the fast kids hit the following age group standards." This was a response to that question. The answer is, no, most of the fast kids do not hit the following age group standards.

If a kid is fast, they will make JOs at the bottom of the age bracket. If they’re very fast, they will make the next age bracket up’s standards. JO is a meet for fast and very fast kids. But there are also LOTS of other fast, special meets. At least one in each quarter. So this complaining is pretty ridiculous.

I will say, after being at a qualifier meet this past weekend, JOs are a huge focus for the kids, more so than the other champs level meets throughout the season. The kids within reach of the cuts all knew the time they needed to get and how much they needed to drop, so many happy kids when they made the cut they were trying to get and tears from kids that came up short. You don’t see the same sort of responses in the lead up to winter champs or summer LC champs. And to the point about kids making the cuts of the next age group, there were a handful of times that would have qualified in next age group up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most of the fast kids hit the following age group standards? My kid was always focused on the next age group up). My 11/12 year old has the 14 year old JO cuts and is a decently fast but nothing amazing.

Yes. My fast 10U has already hit the 11/12 JO cuts.

Um, no. That would be a truly exceptional 10U to do that. Take 100 Free. The 11-12 cut is 1:02.39. In all of PVS this year, five 10U boys have that time.

You do know that JOs is not a meet that every average swimmer is supposed to swim, right? They set the cuts fast to manage the size of the meet. My February bday 9/10 will be working hard next year to make cuts as a just-turned-10-year-old. He’ll probably make it in some and not in others. And that’s ok, because there are other meets at different times of the year where he will dominate.

The comment above asked that "Don't most of the fast kids hit the following age group standards." This was a response to that question. The answer is, no, most of the fast kids do not hit the following age group standards.

If a kid is fast, they will make JOs at the bottom of the age bracket. If they’re very fast, they will make the next age bracket up’s standards. JO is a meet for fast and very fast kids. But there are also LOTS of other fast, special meets. At least one in each quarter. So this complaining is pretty ridiculous.

I have a kid with their last JOs this spring, and I had to look up if they went at 9. I bet the kid doesn't remember either.

I know my January kid didn't make SC JOs at 9, but never missed one after.

It may seem like a big deal at the time, and they probably learn something from it whether they make it or not, but eventually, it really doesn't matter, it was a just another meet.

[Anonymous]

With a March 14 birthday, my daughter will have this problem every other year with her YMCA races but hopefully not the USA Swimming districts and champs since they are generally in February.

Last year was her first year as an 8 year old and it didn't really dawn on me until mid-way through the year that she'd have to compete as a 9/10 the rest of the season to get QTs because 9/10 swims a minimum of 50 yd/meter races while it is hard to find 8 yo 50 yd/meter races so her times were for 25 yd/meter races. Does that make sense?

I get that it is still her against her for her QTs however, that was tough for a first year swimmer.

[Anonymous]

PV has their SC champs in the 1st half of march. Looks like this year it is March 14 exactly unfortunately.

Depending on your program though it should be possible for them to go to meets where 8U 50s are ran. For example, PV Reindeer mini meet (1st week of december),PV November Friendship mini meet (1st week of november) and PV Snowdude mini meet (middle of january) all have 50s in all strokes for 8Us

I will say the YMCA pools do enter some weird meets, though

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With a March 14 birthday, my daughter will have this problem every other year with her YMCA races but hopefully not the USA Swimming districts and champs since they are generally in February.

Last year was her first year as an 8 year old and it didn't really dawn on me until mid-way through the year that she'd have to compete as a 9/10 the rest of the season to get QTs because 9/10 swims a minimum of 50 yd/meter races while it is hard to find 8 yo 50 yd/meter races so her times were for 25 yd/meter races. Does that make sense?

I get that it is still her against her for her QTs however, that was tough for a first year swimmer.

Early March birthdays are the worst swim birthdays of all. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

I had a nationally ranked swimmer and I agree this system used by USA swimming is much fairer than those used by certain other sports that my other DC's played- where there was a cutoff for playing with that "year's" team and some people on the team were 364 days older than others on the team. With swimming you will have a period of time when you are the youngest in the age group but also a period of time when you are the oldest, and everyone gets that chance.

[Anonymous]

It's not correct to say a birthday always hurts a kid, no matter when the birthday occurs. For example, kids born in mid to late summer don't really have a "bad" swim birthday. The vast majority of the country doesn't have another significant meet where it matters until around October. For NVSL, they swim under the lower age group. Since mid August-September birthdays don't really compete again until 2+ months after they age up and they were able to get through Sectionals, Zones (age group and senior), long course champs, NVSL, JOs, etc. without swimming up. Plus, the birthdays in the beginning of the short course season are not typically as important (highly ranked) as the championship meets.

Kids with late Feb and early March birthdays are hurt with: JOs, junior/senior champs, ISCA, Sectionals, etc. It is not fair to those kids, but there needs to be a cut off somewhere, so there it is.

[Anonymous]

There was always a meet the weekend of my kid's birthday, and every time he would finally meet his time goal for the lower age category the weekend after he aged up. Some years the day after. Oh well, new day, new goal!

Like a PP said, it's the times that matter and kids should always be working toward their personal best at any age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not correct to say a birthday always hurts a kid, no matter when the birthday occurs. For example, kids born in mid to late summer don't really have a "bad" swim birthday. The vast majority of the country doesn't have another significant meet where it matters until around October. For NVSL, they swim under the lower age group. Since mid August-September birthdays don't really compete again until 2+ months after they age up and they were able to get through Sectionals, Zones (age group and senior), long course champs, NVSL, JOs, etc. without swimming up. Plus, the birthdays in the beginning of the short course season are not typically as important (highly ranked) as the championship meets.

Kids with late Feb and early March birthdays are hurt with: JOs, junior/senior champs, ISCA, Sectionals, etc. It is not fair to those kids, but there needs to be a cut off somewhere, so there it is.

But what isn't fair? They know the time standard for their age group in the meet they will swim, so they should be working toward that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not correct to say a birthday always hurts a kid, no matter when the birthday occurs. For example, kids born in mid to late summer don't really have a "bad" swim birthday. The vast majority of the country doesn't have another significant meet where it matters until around October. For NVSL, they swim under the lower age group. Since mid August-September birthdays don't really compete again until 2+ months after they age up and they were able to get through Sectionals, Zones (age group and senior), long course champs, NVSL, JOs, etc. without swimming up. Plus, the birthdays in the beginning of the short course season are not typically as important (highly ranked) as the championship meets.

Kids with late Feb and early March birthdays are hurt with: JOs, junior/senior champs, ISCA, Sectionals, etc. It is not fair to those kids, but there needs to be a cut off somewhere, so there it is.

But what isn't fair? They know the time standard for their age group in the meet they will swim, so they should be working toward that.

^^How to say you don’t have a kid with a birthday in early Feb to early March without using those words. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it. 🤷‍♀️ a kid with a birthday on 3/8 will have two years to make jos like every other kid but she will need the 11-12 cut when she’s days into 11 and the 13-14 cut when she’s days into 13. Meanwhile another kid will have to make the 11-12 cut when she’s a year into 11 and just about to turn 13. It “only” really hurts kids with those birthday until they are around 16.

[Anonymous]

Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

Yes. If you don’t get it, you’re either dense or just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your kid. I have a February birthday swimmer and his birthday is unquestionably disadvantageous. I hope it evens out in the teenage years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, unfortunately these cutoffs hurt kids the most at 8-9,10-11 the most, just when some kids need some "external" motivation to stay with swimming. It is true that once kids hit 15 or so it all dramatically evens out.

I have one kid who is a decent enough swimmer but her birthday is the week before PV LC champs. Her times would get her in there as the age she was, but not in the age she will be. So yes, if your kid has a "bad birthday" they usually only get 1 attempt at some big meets unless they're truly exceptional and can make the cuts for the next age group almost before they're into that age group.

Yes. If you don’t get it, you’re either dense or just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your kid. I have a February birthday swimmer and his birthday is unquestionably disadvantageous. I hope it evens out in the teenage years.

It does! I have a bad swim birthday kid and it doesn’t really matter now.