So many unweighted 4.0s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If "A" grades are being given out like candy at only some schools, one of three things will happen:

1. Parents will press their schools to give out "A"s like candy too, which, if successful won't really do anything for college admissions because there already aren't enough spots at so-called "elite" schools for 4.0 students. This will only increase the tendency of parents to claim that the admissions process is unfair or random; or

2. Colleges will figure that out and downgrade the 4.0s from some schools over others (which they already do to an extent for schools where they have substantial experience with their students).

3. The final possibility, which is too painful for some parents to admit, is that most colleges know full well that GPA isn't a fully accurate picture of an applicant. The supply of "good enough" students is really high and admissions departments don't have any special talent in differentiating the "best" of those "good enough" students, so they don't bother trying to drill down beyond the basics of course rigor, class ranks, teacher recs etc. That's why they long ago moved to seeking so much more information in the applications. It may seem random, but it's really more that they recognize that GPAs aren't really "objective" given the level of subjectivity at the teacher and school level, so it's just one of the factors.

I think everyone is over-thinking this way too much.

Unless the students that colleges accept from School A start failing out en masse, they aren't really going to spend much time trying to figure out which HS's hand out their As like candy and which the kid has to earn their A.

As they always say...the hardest part about HYP is getting in...there are plenty of majors at even these schools that tons of kids can do perfectly well at. Every year each school accepts 2-3 from Whitman, Churchill, BCC, Blair (probably more than 2-3) etc. and I gather all those kids do perfectly fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Between MCPS absolutely ridiculous grading scale and the fact that they are not allowed to administer final exams, it’s a wonder those kids are prepared for college. And it’s absurd that MCPS students are compared to students from schools that have strict grading scales, no test retakes, homework graded for accuracy and no weighting for honors/AP classes.

But amazingly, they are. Ask the ones in college now. At least the students hat took college-bound classes (AP/IB etc) feel that they are more than adequately prepared for their classes, even if they received As for an 89.5 in high school - or, horrors, a B for a 79.5.

That's the thing, and my DCs didn't even have the unweighted 4.0s, yet both are in college with an MCPS education, feeling better prepared than peers. Oldest was recruited to work in the campus writing center, she sees how younger students cope as they hit their research papers and portfolio requirements. Youngest is the only freshman in one of his math courses, covering material I didn't see until grad school.

This board is so obsessed with finding a number on a scrap of paper that settles things once and for all, but it can't be done.

Why so defensive? Great your kid managed to get something out of MCPS. When did they graduate? That makes a big difference as well because things are getting progressively worse. Also it depends what institution they are in...doubtful it is a top school based on your statements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If "A" grades are being given out like candy at only some schools, one of three things will happen:

1. Parents will press their schools to give out "A"s like candy too, which, if successful won't really do anything for college admissions because there already aren't enough spots at so-called "elite" schools for 4.0 students. This will only increase the tendency of parents to claim that the admissions process is unfair or random; or

2. Colleges will figure that out and downgrade the 4.0s from some schools over others (which they already do to an extent for schools where they have substantial experience with their students).

3. The final possibility, which is too painful for some parents to admit, is that most colleges know full well that GPA isn't a fully accurate picture of an applicant. The supply of "good enough" students is really high and admissions departments don't have any special talent in differentiating the "best" of those "good enough" students, so they don't bother trying to drill down beyond the basics of course rigor, class ranks, teacher recs etc. That's why they long ago moved to seeking so much more information in the applications. It may seem random, but it's really more that they recognize that GPAs aren't really "objective" given the level of subjectivity at the teacher and school level, so it's just one of the factors.

They definitely already know this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in New England and our school does a straight 0-100 percentage. A 91 is a 91 and a 73 is a 73. Honors classes get a bump of some sort but it’s still a percentage and, really, most colleges just want unweighted. I can’t believe our kids have to compete for the same college spots as these kids who just get As, no matter the percentage.

It's insane. My district is like yours. My kid's GPA will be 89-90. Which I guess in the DC suburbs would be a 4.0+? The whole process is so corrupt and weird.

It doesn’t matter. Your kids are compared to their peers at their school with only that school’s grading scale.

It doesn’t matter to me. If my kid was being hurt by colleges devaluing 4.0s from MCPS schools because of perceived grade inflation, I’d care.

Yes this is a definite issue and what is going to make standardized testing even more crucial.

Well, this is another thing that I completely don't understand. GPAs are inflated and inconsistent. But standardized tests are optional/taboo/racist. Essays are bullshit. Extracurriculars can be faked/inflated. We've made such a mess of everything ... including our kids.

Require all test scores to be seen, no superscore. That cuts a lot of gaming out. Yes - some kids will prep more but it’s another variable for a full picture.

If a kid took the test 4+times that’s a red flag.

Nobody should take the sane standardized test more than twice. A good score first shot, all the better.

I think gpas are pretty worthless at a lot of publics. Our public school system which already allows countless retakes of tests and late assignments is now going to “standards based learning” metrics. So even wishy-washier. Lord help us.

Also, no BS extra time for ADHD or whatever problems certain kids supposedly have. For every 1 with a real problem, there are 9 gaming the system.

Just make the time period longer for everyone and call it a day.

You are right that some game the system, but please do not punish those who actually need the accommodations.

Agreed, but just give everyone the extra time.

[Anonymous]

When I was in high school in another country, we sat nationwide exams in all our subjects. The school newsletter said that the 91% I got in English was the highest grade for any student in any subject for my entire school. I have to laugh that it wouldn't even be an A in many US schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's crazy to me how many kids there are on here with unweighted 4.0s. I feel like even last year it was rare. This year 10 replies out of 15 each time the results from another school come up are ALL unweighted 4.0s.
Many are MCPS--it makes sense with their wacky grading scale: you can get 69.5 (C) quarter 1, 79.5 (B) quarter 2, 79.5 (quarter 3) and 89.5 (quarter 4) and end up with an A or 4.0 for the year for the class.
THAT IS INSANE. Many districts are similar. You are a hair what is traditionally failing for a solid quarter (a 69.5) and you still get an A for the year.
And they don't have A minus grades. So an A is a 4.0

Plus retakes (in many classes), no penalty for late work, etc.

Does anyone who does the work, not end up with a 4.0? It really seems like you have to try to do poorly.

Has a 4.0 ceased (even unweighted) ceased to mean ANYTHING? It seems like this is really hurting the kids who are actually super smart. They are lost in the shuffle of so many kids getting "perfect" grades
for doing very average work.

Huh? You can't believe the stats parents post on the Internet:

Maybe they don't understand how weighted and unweighted differ (seriously, this happens).
Some are reporting semester and annual GPA, not cumulative.
Many school districts award A-pluses that provide a post-4.0 bump to unweighted, yes unweighted, GPAs.
Some are reporting the GPAs colleges recalculate, such as Stanford's 10th and 11th only, no plus or minus.
Maybe they're simply lying.

The best study out there says that grade inflation crept up for a couple of decades until the pandemic, then a period of grade deflation began.

WE LIVE IN A TIME OF GRADE DEFLATION.

There are a lot of forum posters out there who seem to be mentally ill, and the core of their mental illness is that it's easy to get As in large, highly competitive public high schools with robust AP or IB programs. And that's totally false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If "A" grades are being given out like candy at only some schools, one of three things will happen:

1. Parents will press their schools to give out "A"s like candy too, which, if successful won't really do anything for college admissions because there already aren't enough spots at so-called "elite" schools for 4.0 students. This will only increase the tendency of parents to claim that the admissions process is unfair or random; or

2. Colleges will figure that out and downgrade the 4.0s from some schools over others (which they already do to an extent for schools where they have substantial experience with their students).

3. The final possibility, which is too painful for some parents to admit, is that most colleges know full well that GPA isn't a fully accurate picture of an applicant. The supply of "good enough" students is really high and admissions departments don't have any special talent in differentiating the "best" of those "good enough" students, so they don't bother trying to drill down beyond the basics of course rigor, class ranks, teacher recs etc. That's why they long ago moved to seeking so much more information in the applications. It may seem random, but it's really more that they recognize that GPAs aren't really "objective" given the level of subjectivity at the teacher and school level, so it's just one of the factors.

Overall, this is a good overall assessment of what is happening. To add some nuance... I recently attended a meeting with admissions (public R1) 1) to determine the outcomes of TO policy to date; 2) to provide faculty input on student performance trends in foundational/gateway math and science courses during the pandemic; and 3) to compare college course grade outcomes with student incoming GPAs (unweighted) and rigor (e.g., AP Calc, AP Chem, IB, etc.). Admissions have data at the school system and individual HS level, and in some cases, at the course level. I'm confident that this is happening at most schools that have the resources and incentive to analyze the data.

-soon to be department chair and parent of a public school 10th-grade student

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If "A" grades are being given out like candy at only some schools, one of three things will happen:

1. Parents will press their schools to give out "A"s like candy too, which, if successful won't really do anything for college admissions because there already aren't enough spots at so-called "elite" schools for 4.0 students. This will only increase the tendency of parents to claim that the admissions process is unfair or random; or

2. Colleges will figure that out and downgrade the 4.0s from some schools over others (which they already do to an extent for schools where they have substantial experience with their students).

3. The final possibility, which is too painful for some parents to admit, is that most colleges know full well that GPA isn't a fully accurate picture of an applicant. The supply of "good enough" students is really high and admissions departments don't have any special talent in differentiating the "best" of those "good enough" students, so they don't bother trying to drill down beyond the basics of course rigor, class ranks, teacher recs etc. That's why they long ago moved to seeking so much more information in the applications. It may seem random, but it's really more that they recognize that GPAs aren't really "objective" given the level of subjectivity at the teacher and school level, so it's just one of the factors.

Overall, this is a good overall assessment of what is happening. To add some nuance... I recently attended a meeting with admissions (public R1) 1) to determine the outcomes of TO policy to date; 2) to provide faculty input on student performance trends in foundational/gateway math and science courses during the pandemic; and 3) to compare college course grade outcomes with student incoming GPAs (unweighted) and rigor (e.g., AP Calc, AP Chem, IB, etc.). Admissions have data at the school system and individual HS level, and in some cases, at the course level. I'm confident that this is happening at most schools that have the resources and incentive to analyze the data.

-soon to be department chair and parent of a public school 10th-grade student

Can you give a hint as to whether this school is considering reinstating requiring test scores? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Between MCPS absolutely ridiculous grading scale and the fact that they are not allowed to administer final exams, it’s a wonder those kids are prepared for college. And it’s absurd that MCPS students are compared to students from schools that have strict grading scales, no test retakes, homework graded for accuracy and no weighting for honors/AP classes.

But amazingly, they are. Ask the ones in college now. At least the students hat took college-bound classes (AP/IB etc) feel that they are more than adequately prepared for their classes, even if they received As for an 89.5 in high school - or, horrors, a B for a 79.5.

That's the thing, and my DCs didn't even have the unweighted 4.0s, yet both are in college with an MCPS education, feeling better prepared than peers. Oldest was recruited to work in the campus writing center, she sees how younger students cope as they hit their research papers and portfolio requirements. Youngest is the only freshman in one of his math courses, covering material I didn't see until grad school.

This board is so obsessed with finding a number on a scrap of paper that settles things once and for all, but it can't be done.

Why so defensive? Great your kid managed to get something out of MCPS. When did they graduate? That makes a big difference as well because things are getting progressively worse. Also it depends what institution they are in...doubtful it is a top school based on your statements.

Defensive, how? just agreeing, and satisfied with MCPS and the grading policy--parent of 2019 and 2022 grads. Yes, in the past (eg when my parents were in HS) grades were used to pit individuals against each other. The current thinking is instead grades indicate degree of mastery by the end of the course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's crazy to me how many kids there are on here with unweighted 4.0s. I feel like even last year it was rare. This year 10 replies out of 15 each time the results from another school come up are ALL unweighted 4.0s.
Many are MCPS--it makes sense with their wacky grading scale: you can get 69.5 (C) quarter 1, 79.5 (B) quarter 2, 79.5 (quarter 3) and 89.5 (quarter 4) and end up with an A or 4.0 for the year for the class.
THAT IS INSANE. Many districts are similar. You are a hair what is traditionally failing for a solid quarter (a 69.5) and you still get an A for the year.
And they don't have A minus grades. So an A is a 4.0

Plus retakes (in many classes), no penalty for late work, etc.

Does anyone who does the work, not end up with a 4.0? It really seems like you have to try to do poorly.

Has a 4.0 ceased (even unweighted) ceased to mean ANYTHING? It seems like this is really hurting the kids who are actually super smart. They are lost in the shuffle of so many kids getting "perfect" grades
for doing very average work.

Only about 6-10 4.0 unweighted GPA for TJ graduating class. About top 1% unlike 10-20% for other HSs.

One of the few 'real' high school remaining in the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If "A" grades are being given out like candy at only some schools, one of three things will happen:

1. Parents will press their schools to give out "A"s like candy too, which, if successful won't really do anything for college admissions because there already aren't enough spots at so-called "elite" schools for 4.0 students. This will only increase the tendency of parents to claim that the admissions process is unfair or random; or

2. Colleges will figure that out and downgrade the 4.0s from some schools over others (which they already do to an extent for schools where they have substantial experience with their students).

3. The final possibility, which is too painful for some parents to admit, is that most colleges know full well that GPA isn't a fully accurate picture of an applicant. The supply of "good enough" students is really high and admissions departments don't have any special talent in differentiating the "best" of those "good enough" students, so they don't bother trying to drill down beyond the basics of course rigor, class ranks, teacher recs etc. That's why they long ago moved to seeking so much more information in the applications. It may seem random, but it's really more that they recognize that GPAs aren't really "objective" given the level of subjectivity at the teacher and school level, so it's just one of the factors.

Overall, this is a good overall assessment of what is happening. To add some nuance... I recently attended a meeting with admissions (public R1) 1) to determine the outcomes of TO policy to date; 2) to provide faculty input on student performance trends in foundational/gateway math and science courses during the pandemic; and 3) to compare college course grade outcomes with student incoming GPAs (unweighted) and rigor (e.g., AP Calc, AP Chem, IB, etc.). Admissions have data at the school system and individual HS level, and in some cases, at the course level. I'm confident that this is happening at most schools that have the resources and incentive to analyze the data.

-soon to be department chair and parent of a public school 10th-grade student

Can you give a hint as to whether this school is considering reinstating requiring test scores? Thanks.

At this time no, however, not surprisingly, there are competing interests among faculty, administration, etc. that could shift to reinstating test scores or making TO permanent. Most faculty want to reinstate test scores because of pandemic learning gaps and the administration wants to wait until we have additional data and for the Supreme Court ruling to affirmative action.

I can tell you that we have come to the conclusion that TO applicants must have higher unweighted GPAs (core courses) and demonstrate course rigor compared to students that submitted SAT/ACT scores except TO applicants that submitted AP/IB scores in core courses (>4).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's crazy to me how many kids there are on here with unweighted 4.0s. I feel like even last year it was rare. This year 10 replies out of 15 each time the results from another school come up are ALL unweighted 4.0s.
Many are MCPS--it makes sense with their wacky grading scale: you can get 69.5 (C) quarter 1, 79.5 (B) quarter 2, 79.5 (quarter 3) and 89.5 (quarter 4) and end up with an A or 4.0 for the year for the class.
THAT IS INSANE. Many districts are similar. You are a hair what is traditionally failing for a solid quarter (a 69.5) and you still get an A for the year.
And they don't have A minus grades. So an A is a 4.0

Plus retakes (in many classes), no penalty for late work, etc.

Does anyone who does the work, not end up with a 4.0? It really seems like you have to try to do poorly.

Has a 4.0 ceased (even unweighted) ceased to mean ANYTHING? It seems like this is really hurting the kids who are actually super smart. They are lost in the shuffle of so many kids getting "perfect" grades
for doing very average work.

Huh? You can't believe the stats parents post on the Internet:

Maybe they don't understand how weighted and unweighted differ (seriously, this happens).
Some are reporting semester and annual GPA, not cumulative.
Many school districts award A-pluses that provide a post-4.0 bump to unweighted, yes unweighted, GPAs.
Some are reporting the GPAs colleges recalculate, such as Stanford's 10th and 11th only, no plus or minus.
Maybe they're simply lying.

The best study out there says that grade inflation crept up for a couple of decades until the pandemic, then a period of grade deflation began.

WE LIVE IN A TIME OF GRADE DEFLATION.

There are a lot of forum posters out there who seem to be mentally ill, and the core of their mental illness is that it's easy to get As in large, highly competitive public high schools with robust AP or IB programs. And that's totally false.

Yep. In fact grade inflation was 3 times higher in private schools.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/07/17/easy-a-nearly-half-hs-seniors-graduate-average/485787001/

Actually, they said, the upward creep is most pronounced in schools with large numbers of white, wealthy students. And its especially noticeable in private schools, where the rate of inflation was about three times higher than in public schools.

[Anonymous]

We’re in CA now and the GPA in high schools is REALLY inconsistent. We have lots of smaller school systems and there is no consistency. Everything is the discretion of the teacher. You can get teacher A in chem who allows retakes, rounds up, everyone gets an A or B or teacher B who doesn’t allow retakes, doesn’t give back tests, is generally really crappy most kids get B and Cs, DS only got an A because he learns independently and did a course on line/college board stuff in tandem. The range is so extreme that some English teachers give As for 80% and other give it at 90%. Some have changed their grading scale a month before the semester ends. Grades on transcript are semester based not year based. If you have an 89.7 in one semester, it calculates as a B. If you have an 89.7 in the other teacher you get rounded up to 90 and it’s a full 4.0. This even happens in AP and honors classes.

UC and Cal State do not look at which schools inflate and which ones deflate. It’s all equal. The joke about privates is that you are paying for your gpa. Class rank doesn’t help much because kids game the system. They take only enough APs to get the UC boost allowance in their area of study and then take easy classes for the rest.

DD lucked out and hit the easy teachers while DS ended up with the worst ones. DS is a much better student but keeping straight As has been hard not because the coursework was challenging but because he ended up with teachers that had a totally different scale and level of expectation then other teachers.

At the end of the day DD had better in state options than she should have while DS will likely end up at a school below his capability despite having an unweighted 4.0 with more rigorous courses. I’m thrilled for DD but it sucks for DS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in high school in another country, we sat nationwide exams in all our subjects. The school newsletter said that the 91% I got in English was the highest grade for any student in any subject for my entire school. I have to laugh that it wouldn't even be an A in many US schools.

This is what my parents describe in their home country. Very few kids could go to college, and those who could were relentlessly sorted by score.

[Anonymous]

Despite 10 pages of concerns, highly selective colleges have no trouble choosing excellent kids and building a great class.

Their problem is the opposite: choosing whom to reject from the large number of qualified kids.

Your concern that these issues, whether real or imagined, are causing colleges to select kids that are unqualified and incapable is just not borne out by evidence.