swim parents: Why is NCap so expensive?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This may be true but then why the price tag compared to say RMSC? What’s the value added if they don’t have consistently high-quality coaching across sites?

You can’t really compare RMSC pricing because the sites are subsidized by the City of Rockville and Montgomery County. But yes, NCAP is probably the most expensive club option in the area. As others have pointed out there are some great sites/coaches but it is a big franchise and not uniform across the board.

RMSC is not subsidized by the county or city of Rockville. You repeat this frequently but it’s not true. NCAP is for profit which makes it more expensive- plus they pay their coaches more.

Really? So how much does RMSC pay to the county for pool time in county-owned pools?

The answer is that RMSC pays nothing for use of those pools (and on top of that, other clubs aren't even allowed to rent those facilities). That is a gigantic subsidy. These pools cost millions of dollars to build, maintain and operate, and the county taxpayer pays for all of it. Other clubs have to pay rental fees to schools other pool owners (which then use those fees to defray the cost of building and operating the pools) or build and run their own pools.

Sigh. Not this same discussion on every thread where you repeatedly bash RMSC. Are you a NCRAP employee?

Is anything above incorrect? Does RMSC pay fees to use the pools? If so, how much?

Every time this comes up, I go looking for RMSC financial reports. Has anyone been able to find them? Personally, I would not be surprised to find out that RMSC as a club does pay the county something. So unless I knew for sure, I wouldn't say either way.

Things are not always how you would expect. For example, University of Maryland athletic teams pay the university for use of the facilities. I know for a fact when they had a swim team, they "rented" pool time as does the Department of Kinesiology to teach water-based classes.

Here’s a Q&A from RMSC explaining that the county covers all their indirect costs, including pool use.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/5ccadc7653450af624fe0a22/1556798582845/RMSC+Fees+Q+%26+A.docx

Are there portions of the program that are tax supported? Yes, all indirect costs of the program are tax supported. Indirect costs include expenses associated with operating the pool. Expenses include items such as pool staff, registration systems costs/fees, building and maintenance, pool chemical and operation, utilities and any debt service. These fees are not passed on to our customers, however, in some communities recreation departments are required to recover both direct and indirect costs.

What is included in the fee and what are the costs associated? RMSC fees include coaching costs, USAS Registration fees, all meet entries, travel related expenses, coaches travel, meet equipment, training equipment and apparel. The Department will spend nearly $1M in coach’s salaries alone this year and average nearly 80hrs per week of pool time per site for the RMSC program.


It’s a county based program, of course some of the indirect costs aren’t passed on.

Which means it is, in fact, subsidized. It has exclusive and free access to taxpayer-supported pools that would otherwise cost it millions of dollars a year to rent at market prices. You can argue this is good or this is bad, but there is no denying it is a huge subsidy and it is a major reason why RMSC's fees are less than other clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This may be true but then why the price tag compared to say RMSC? What’s the value added if they don’t have consistently high-quality coaching across sites?

You can’t really compare RMSC pricing because the sites are subsidized by the City of Rockville and Montgomery County. But yes, NCAP is probably the most expensive club option in the area. As others have pointed out there are some great sites/coaches but it is a big franchise and not uniform across the board.

RMSC is not subsidized by the county or city of Rockville. You repeat this frequently but it’s not true. NCAP is for profit which makes it more expensive- plus they pay their coaches more.

Really? So how much does RMSC pay to the county for pool time in county-owned pools?

The answer is that RMSC pays nothing for use of those pools (and on top of that, other clubs aren't even allowed to rent those facilities). That is a gigantic subsidy. These pools cost millions of dollars to build, maintain and operate, and the county taxpayer pays for all of it. Other clubs have to pay rental fees to schools other pool owners (which then use those fees to defray the cost of building and operating the pools) or build and run their own pools.

Sigh. Not this same discussion on every thread where you repeatedly bash RMSC. Are you a NCRAP employee?

Is anything above incorrect? Does RMSC pay fees to use the pools? If so, how much?

Every time this comes up, I go looking for RMSC financial reports. Has anyone been able to find them? Personally, I would not be surprised to find out that RMSC as a club does pay the county something. So unless I knew for sure, I wouldn't say either way.

Things are not always how you would expect. For example, University of Maryland athletic teams pay the university for use of the facilities. I know for a fact when they had a swim team, they "rented" pool time as does the Department of Kinesiology to teach water-based classes.

Here’s a Q&A from RMSC explaining that the county covers all their indirect costs, including pool use.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/5ccadc7653450af624fe0a22/1556798582845/RMSC+Fees+Q+%26+A.docx

Are there portions of the program that are tax supported? Yes, all indirect costs of the program are tax supported. Indirect costs include expenses associated with operating the pool. Expenses include items such as pool staff, registration systems costs/fees, building and maintenance, pool chemical and operation, utilities and any debt service. These fees are not passed on to our customers, however, in some communities recreation departments are required to recover both direct and indirect costs.

What is included in the fee and what are the costs associated? RMSC fees include coaching costs, USAS Registration fees, all meet entries, travel related expenses, coaches travel, meet equipment, training equipment and apparel. The Department will spend nearly $1M in coach’s salaries alone this year and average nearly 80hrs per week of pool time per site for the RMSC program.


It’s a county based program, of course some of the indirect costs aren’t passed on.

Which means it is, in fact, subsidized. It has exclusive and free access to taxpayer-supported pools that would otherwise cost it millions of dollars a year to rent at market prices. You can argue this is good or this is bad, but there is no denying it is a huge subsidy and it is a major reason why RMSC's fees are less than other clubs.

This is very true. And if you add that some staff are county employees that is another subsidy.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

Most of the swim teams aren't diverse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

Most of the swim teams aren't diverse.

I actually noticed this weekend that, for swimming anyway*, Machine and NCAP were quite diverse. RMSC seemed the least diverse in its definitional meaning, but RMSC seemed to have more Asian-American children than NCAP and Machine. All three of the large PVS swim teams have a lot of Asian-American swimmers, though.
*swimming is not diverse, but I was excited to see more BIPOC representation this weekend at Turkey Claus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

How were the swimmers you mention excluded?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

No, just the opposite in fact.

[Anonymous]

NCAP is least diverse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone noticed a tendency to exclude black girls from Ncap? Know of a couple recently excluded, both faster than others in the team, one remarkably so. Didn’t think of it much until at a recent meet and saw very few on the participating Ncap teams.

Most of the swim teams aren't diverse.

I actually noticed this weekend that, for swimming anyway*, Machine and NCAP were quite diverse. RMSC seemed the least diverse in its definitional meaning, but RMSC seemed to have more Asian-American children than NCAP and Machine. All three of the large PVS swim teams have a lot of Asian-American swimmers, though.
*swimming is not diverse, but I was excited to see more BIPOC representation this weekend at Turkey Claus

[Anonymous]

its the least diverse because its the most expensive!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:its the least diverse because its the most expensive!

What do you mean by that? That BIPOC families in the metro DC area must be poorer than white families? That's quite racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NCAP doesn't charge you for meets or nickel and dime you for other things and doesn't require parents to volunteer. It is one cost and that is it.

Doesn’t NCAP charge a volunteer fee???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NCAP doesn't charge you for meets or nickel and dime you for other things and doesn't require parents to volunteer. It is one cost and that is it.

Doesn’t NCAP charge a volunteer fee???

The post you’re quoting is old. NCAP charges a volunteer fee if you don’t meet your required hours and the parents pay all meet fees except for NCI.

[Anonymous]

How were the swimmers you mention excluded?

not offered spots over markedly slower kids, yet friendly and VERY fast swimmers. Probably more to it than meets the eye - so not a big deal. Just thought about it after seeing one age group last weekend at TC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m very curious about this. One of my kids is pretty talented and we are with a team that is not mentioned here. I am constantly worried that I’m doing this kid a disservice by not going with a bigger, more expensive club.

One thing I wonder is whether the training group itself - the actual kids - is worth the cost. In other words, is everyone fart and pushing each other?

My DD is an A/AA swimmer now and last year was her first year participating in club swim. Her rapid improvement was due not only to the coaching she has gotten at NCAP but the training group as well. She swims with kids her age, she’s not outside of her age group, but the lane of kids she swims with are also fast. That has helped motivate her, and her training within the training group is more rigorous than the other lanes with different intervals, different sets, etc. I think it’s probably a little more difficult to get the best out of a kid if they are clearly the best swimmer in their group and there is no one to push them and they are training under their capabilities because the other kids can’t keep up.

+1. I could have written this. DD also swims for NCAP and has an awesome training group of very talented swimmers that push her and a coach she loves.

+1 Agree!! DS is really enjoying his training group at NCAP Burke. He’s in a practice group with kids his age and speed which is very important to us. We are newer to the area and yes the fees were 😳 but you get what you pay for. We have a great coach who has a great connection with the kids, the training is very high quality and our DS has had great time drops all season and definitely excelling. He’s happy, doesn’t ever complain about going to practices. We love the late afternoon practice slot. We’d previously only had morning options and it was a daily struggle to wake up so early. It seems like a great group of kids and they have a lot of fun while working hard. Couldn’t ask for more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m very curious about this. One of my kids is pretty talented and we are with a team that is not mentioned here. I am constantly worried that I’m doing this kid a disservice by not going with a bigger, more expensive club.

One thing I wonder is whether the training group itself - the actual kids - is worth the cost. In other words, is everyone fart and pushing each other?

My DD is an A/AA swimmer now and last year was her first year participating in club swim. Her rapid improvement was due not only to the coaching she has gotten at NCAP but the training group as well. She swims with kids her age, she’s not outside of her age group, but the lane of kids she swims with are also fast. That has helped motivate her, and her training within the training group is more rigorous than the other lanes with different intervals, different sets, etc. I think it’s probably a little more difficult to get the best out of a kid if they are clearly the best swimmer in their group and there is no one to push them and they are training under their capabilities because the other kids can’t keep up.

+1. I could have written this. DD also swims for NCAP and has an awesome training group of very talented swimmers that push her and a coach she loves.

+1 Agree!! DS is really enjoying his training group at NCAP Burke. He’s in a practice group with kids his age and speed which is very important to us. We are newer to the area and yes the fees were 😳 but you get what you pay for. We have a great coach who has a great connection with the kids, the training is very high quality and our DS has had great time drops all season and definitely excelling. He’s happy, doesn’t ever complain about going to practices. We love the late afternoon practice slot. We’d previously only had morning options and it was a daily struggle to wake up so early. It seems like a great group of kids and they have a lot of fun while working hard. Couldn’t ask for more

+1 for NCAP-Burke. Our child started at 7 and has a fantastic rapport with the coaches, along with so many great friends.