Cost of attendance? Wow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's kinda ridiculous that we all have to scrimp and save and live in crappy houses to pay for college -- and then for our kids to do it all over again with their own kids. Scrimp and save and live in crappy houses (even with their great jobs from private educations) because costs are so high. It's just a cycle and it seems to be getting worse that we sacrifice so much to save for college since they are born.

I so agree with this. What surprises me is that parents aren't more organized. I know there's a "paying for college" Facebook group but I am not aware of an actual lobbying effort to change this. There are solutions, including talking to people like Sen. Patty Murray (appropriations subcommittee + authorizing committee chair), or Approps Chair Rosa DeLauro or Ed/Workforce Chair Bobby Scott about college costs. I personally would like Congress to make the financial aid formula more generous, including by making college more affordable for families with multiple kids now that Congress passed legislation to get rid of the two-kids-in-college discount.
I also just this week spoke directly to the president of my alma mater (a private top 25 school), urging him to freeze the costs of attendance and expand financial aid. One person saying this probably doesn't matter but if a group of alums were making donations contingent on improving affordability or parents were putting more pressure on schools or Congress was doing more, maybe we could at least return to the "good old days" of the '90s or '00s (haha) when college was simply too expensive and not exhorbitant and exploitative like it is now.

Having a formula basically weeds out anyone in the middle and keeps college either for the very rich and very poor. They should charge a fair amount and stop all merit and other aid and only give aid to those truly poor/low income. Families who make $300K a year don't need merit aid. That would keep costs down.

Families who make $300K today generally haven't made $300K for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's kinda ridiculous that we all have to scrimp and save and live in crappy houses to pay for college -- and then for our kids to do it all over again with their own kids. Scrimp and save and live in crappy houses (even with their great jobs from private educations) because costs are so high. It's just a cycle and it seems to be getting worse that we sacrifice so much to save for college since they are born.

I so agree with this. What surprises me is that parents aren't more organized. I know there's a "paying for college" Facebook group but I am not aware of an actual lobbying effort to change this. There are solutions, including talking to people like Sen. Patty Murray (appropriations subcommittee + authorizing committee chair), or Approps Chair Rosa DeLauro or Ed/Workforce Chair Bobby Scott about college costs. I personally would like Congress to make the financial aid formula more generous, including by making college more affordable for families with multiple kids now that Congress passed legislation to get rid of the two-kids-in-college discount.
I also just this week spoke directly to the president of my alma mater (a private top 25 school), urging him to freeze the costs of attendance and expand financial aid. One person saying this probably doesn't matter but if a group of alums were making donations contingent on improving affordability or parents were putting more pressure on schools or Congress was doing more, maybe we could at least return to the "good old days" of the '90s or '00s (haha) when college was simply too expensive and not exhorbitant and exploitative like it is now.

Having a formula basically weeds out anyone in the middle and keeps college either for the very rich and very poor. They should charge a fair amount and stop all merit and other aid and only give aid to those truly poor/low income. Families who make $300K a year don't need merit aid. That would keep costs down.

Families who make $300K today generally haven't made $300K for years.

People who insist the donut hole is a myth somehow believe that they have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

The only plumbers around here with that kind of money are the ones with enormous companies. I can think of maybe 10 in the DC metro area. The other thousand plumbers don't make nearly that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

The only plumbers around here with that kind of money are the ones with enormous companies. I can think of maybe 10 in the DC metro area. The other thousand plumbers don't make nearly that much.

And there are a lot of people with college degrees making crappy money and paying off significant college debt. There is no guaranteed path to success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

The only plumbers around here with that kind of money are the ones with enormous companies. I can think of maybe 10 in the DC metro area. The other thousand plumbers don't make nearly that much.

And there are a lot of people with college degrees making crappy money and paying off significant college debt. There is no guaranteed path to success.

Which is why you go to college. Anecdotes aside, you are more likely to earn a good living with a bachelors degree than without.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most (all?) “developed countries” have very different higher education systems. In Europe and the UK, the educational systems are generally set up to be a long process to weed out all but the most highly qualified students, and if you get off track early because you’re a late bloomer or have learning disabilities or don’t have a supportive home environment, that’s just too bad for you. Most Asian countries take that to a whole new level. Then the colleges themselves continue the process. These countries have lower levels of college graduates, and almost nothing of the support systems to get and keep disadvantaged students in the system. There was a discussion of this on another thread, but most don’t seem to realize that the enormous growth in support services provided by today’s universities cost money. Yes, new buildings etc are part of the cost, but the freely available tutoring and writing centers, counseling, etc etc that schools provide now is definitely a part of the increase in “admin” costs. When I was in college, your advisor might meet with you once a year, but other than that, you were on your own.

I have issues with the “everyone needs to go to college” mentality, but this country has made a decision that increasing access to college is a good thing. The result is a range of colleges, from relatively inexpensive state colleges to state flagships to private institutions. And guess what? If your kid is so smart and accomplished that they would have been able to attend college in say, Germany, then they will probably attract enough merit aid to attend college in the US for a minimal amount of $$.

Sort of. It's true that education systems in all countries have some inequities and winners and losers. Upward mobility is challenging pretty much everywhere, including in the US, these days.

The primary difference at this stage, though, is that debt is viewed as inevitable for even middle class families in the US in order for their children to achieve a level of education necessary to remain in the middle class. That's simply not true in most other developed nations. In the US, we've raised barriers to entry for many careers at the same time that costs of higher education have risen exponentially. Throw in the massive growth in for profit colleges, which can be incredibly exploitative, and it's an untenable situation.

In Germany or France or the UK, you might be blocked from an elite education very early in life. So if your dream is to be an academic or a lawyer or something, you may simply never have the opportunity. There are inherent problems in this.

On the other hand, if you want to be a teacher or a physical therapist, you will be able to obtain your degree and necessary training without borrowing any money. Plus these countries offer some form of socialized medicine so you will not have to worry about access to basic healthcare while in school, even if making a mid-career change (in fact these countries have extensive supports for people to get re-trained in new careers after getting laid off, for instance). There are also considerably more supports for subsidizing housing, family leave, and childcare.

So it's possible to just be a middle class person in these countries and have a decent quality of life, be able to live relatively close to where you work, have kids without worrying how you will afford to do so, be able to take time off to care for your newborn or an ailing family member, access to quality healthcare, etc. And, if you have kids, you don't have to begin saving for a college education the moment the child is born (while also paying astronomical rates for private childcare, after returning to work just weeks after giving birth).

See how it all works together? Increasing, people in the US are looking at the promise of elite education and realizing it's not worth it. Sure, if you get good grades and work hard and are willing to take on debt, you can get a very good education from a high quality school, and major in whatever you want. And then you will spend the next 5-20 years paying off the cost of that education, while working jobs that have nothing to do with your major, in cities with skyrocketing housing costs, while desperately clinging to any job that will provide you with health insurance, and never buying a home or having kids because where the hell is that money going to come from? It's a broken system that really only serves a tiny group of people at the top while everyone else just lives in a permanent state of debt for their entire adult lives, praying that a medical emergency or job loss doesn't push them over the edge.

I will take Option B, thanks.

This is such a DC bubble take on the world. You believe the only two paths in life are college or poverty. Believe it or not, it is possible to have a decent middle class quality of life in the US without going to college. I know lots of people who are doing that, as we speak. You need to get out more.

There reality is that a serious shortage of people to work in trades in the US — qualified pipe fitters, truck drivers, electricians — all make good money with good benefits. The Unions will often provide free training to anyone who can do basic math and stay off drugs. However, US policymakers and politicians decided to convince people that they are a loser if they don’t go to college. You’re right that people are beginning to wake up, but it took a significant portion of an entire generation incurring college debt that they couldn’t repay for essentially worthless college degrees. Now, there are many (on this board) who think the answer is that the government (our taxes) should pay for those worthless college degrees. Meanwhile, the Port of LA is completely choked with goods that can’t get to market because we don’t have people who will take a job making $70,000 a year that requires 7 weeks of training. If they save up and buy their own $160,000-$250,000 truck, an owner operator can make $350,000 or more a year. Instead we have people with $360,000 liberal arts degrees working for $15 an hour at Starbucks.

Until Google or Tesla drive them to bankrupcy like Uber did to NYC cabbies. Blue collar jobs are less resilient to change as white collar jobs.

You’re delusional if you think white collar jobs are resilient to change. Computers now do discovery for lawyers in a tiny fraction of the time it used to take young associates. The pace of that change is only going to continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why there are constant articles and discussion about college costs. Most UMC folks are usually well aware of this.

OP here-- yes, as previously stated, we know college is expensive and will have enough for most (not all) schools if DS does his part to make good grades and be responsible. I was just surprised that there were so many expensive colleges and even the well regarded public schools are a lot (I think UMich was something like 69K per year once you factor living expenses). I don't know how people who aren't rich and don't qualify for financial aid afford anything except in-state-- even then, the cost has gone up a lot.

There is an expectation families save. I don't get those families living in expensive housing and comfortable lives complaining about college costs. We aren't high income and we managed to save. We live in a house most people here would not, very small and needs lots of work. It was the cheapest house we could find at the time. We drive our vehicles till they die and only take a vacation every few years at best. True middle class will qualify for financial aid. If you don't qualify, then except for some exceptions like health issues, special needs, having to care for family, etc. then you need to make an effort to save.

300k for undergrad is an insane expectation

I agree with both of you

Meh, I don't agree that people should be forced to live in a cheap, unmaintained home and give up some comforts, not in accordance with the salary that they work hard for, just to prop up salaries of college admins and the student loan industry. When the cost of school is outpacing incomes by as much as it is, there is a problem.

You don't think people should have to give up "comforts" that their salary would provide to pay for college? Excellent. I make $500k each year, and I do enjoy my comforts. I'd much rather take a couple extra ski trips than save for college. After all, they are the comforts my salary provides, and I work hard for it.

Idiotic.

Believe it or not, people in other developed countries don't scrimp and save for two decades to enable their kids to get university educations.

True story.

Most (all?) “developed countries” have very different higher education systems. In Europe and the UK, the educational systems are generally set up to be a long process to weed out all but the most highly qualified students, and if you get off track early because you’re a late bloomer or have learning disabilities or don’t have a supportive home environment, that’s just too bad for you. Most Asian countries take that to a whole new level. Then the colleges themselves continue the process. These countries have lower levels of college graduates, and almost nothing of the support systems to get and keep disadvantaged students in the system. There was a discussion of this on another thread, but most don’t seem to realize that the enormous growth in support services provided by today’s universities cost money. Yes, new buildings etc are part of the cost, but the freely available tutoring and writing centers, counseling, etc etc that schools provide now is definitely a part of the increase in “admin” costs. When I was in college, your advisor might meet with you once a year, but other than that, you were on your own.

I have issues with the “everyone needs to go to college” mentality, but this country has made a decision that increasing access to college is a good thing. The result is a range of colleges, from relatively inexpensive state colleges to state flagships to private institutions. And guess what? If your kid is so smart and accomplished that they would have been able to attend college in say, Germany, then they will probably attract enough merit aid to attend college in the US for a minimal amount of $$.

Here we weed out based on family wealth. It’s a much more American way of doing things

The ultra elite private colleges provide very generous financial aid and state colleges are very affordable. Tuition at Towson State is $10,000 a year. Your kid can live at home and go to the University of Maryland for less than $11,000 a year in state. Starting out at Community College and transferring to a four year college is even cheaper.

Oh, you’re too big of a snob to send your kid to Towson State? That’s your problem.

OMG, I am so sick of this trope. "Very generous financial aid" is meaningless for a family making even $250K if they have more than one kid and/or are older parents and/or at any point in time in the previous two decades suffered a setback of some kind making it difficult or impossible to save. (Daycare for 5+ years can be a setback, depending on where you live.)

RE Towson, it's not about snobbery. It's about an appropriate education for the particular student. I can assure you that an Intel finalist from TJ isn't going to find what they need at Towson.

They can find what they “need” at Towson. They may not find what they want. In any case, an Intel finalist from TJ can go to Virginia Tech or Maryland for the same amount of $$ and get an excellent education.

[Anonymous]

What gets me about this conversation is that everyone whining about the inadequacy of state universities assumes that their kid was going to get into MIT in the first place. And then they compare their career outlook to “the vast majority of plumbers.” When talking about trades, we’re not pushing that for the Intel finalist. However, there is, in fact, a layer of lower-performing kids for whom college is probably not very beneficial, if at all. The ROI on sending those kids to an $80,000 a year college just isn’t there. If a parent has the money, and wants to spend it, that’s their call. However, it makes zero sense to spend taxpayer dollars to subsidize that. That’s why countries that have “free” college tuition have a much lower college attendance rate than the US, and a much more competitive process to get in.

If your kid is that smart and motivated, they’re going to do well in life, whether they go to George Mason or MIT. In fact, there is data on this very issue. Smart, motivated kids from MC/UMC educated families don’t get any career boost from attending an “elite” college (smart, motivated kids from poor families do, which is why giving them financial aid makes sense).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What gets me about this conversation is that everyone whining about the inadequacy of state universities assumes that their kid was going to get into MIT in the first place. And then they compare their career outlook to “the vast majority of plumbers.” When talking about trades, we’re not pushing that for the Intel finalist. However, there is, in fact, a layer of lower-performing kids for whom college is probably not very beneficial, if at all. The ROI on sending those kids to an $80,000 a year college just isn’t there. If a parent has the money, and wants to spend it, that’s their call. However, it makes zero sense to spend taxpayer dollars to subsidize that. That’s why countries that have “free” college tuition have a much lower college attendance rate than the US, and a much more competitive process to get in.

If your kid is that smart and motivated, they’re going to do well in life, whether they go to George Mason or MIT. In fact, there is data on this very issue. Smart, motivated kids from MC/UMC educated families don’t get any career boost from attending an “elite” college (smart, motivated kids from poor families do, which is why giving them financial aid makes sense).

This, most kids will not even get it so its silly to argue over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's kinda ridiculous that we all have to scrimp and save and live in crappy houses to pay for college -- and then for our kids to do it all over again with their own kids. Scrimp and save and live in crappy houses (even with their great jobs from private educations) because costs are so high. It's just a cycle and it seems to be getting worse that we sacrifice so much to save for college since they are born.

I so agree with this. What surprises me is that parents aren't more organized. I know there's a "paying for college" Facebook group but I am not aware of an actual lobbying effort to change this. There are solutions, including talking to people like Sen. Patty Murray (appropriations subcommittee + authorizing committee chair), or Approps Chair Rosa DeLauro or Ed/Workforce Chair Bobby Scott about college costs. I personally would like Congress to make the financial aid formula more generous, including by making college more affordable for families with multiple kids now that Congress passed legislation to get rid of the two-kids-in-college discount.
I also just this week spoke directly to the president of my alma mater (a private top 25 school), urging him to freeze the costs of attendance and expand financial aid. One person saying this probably doesn't matter but if a group of alums were making donations contingent on improving affordability or parents were putting more pressure on schools or Congress was doing more, maybe we could at least return to the "good old days" of the '90s or '00s (haha) when college was simply too expensive and not exhorbitant and exploitative like it is now.

Having a formula basically weeds out anyone in the middle and keeps college either for the very rich and very poor. They should charge a fair amount and stop all merit and other aid and only give aid to those truly poor/low income. Families who make $300K a year don't need merit aid. That would keep costs down.

Families who make $300K today generally haven't made $300K for years.

Correct, but when you start making that money, instead of buying a new car, upgrading your house or traveling, you put it away for college and retirement. Simple. That's what we did. IF you choose to upgrade your $600K house to a $1-1.5 million dollar house, and choose not to save, you shouldn't expect hand outs. And, many of those families were making $150K-200K and could very comfortably save. Life is about choices. The privates were never cheap when we went in the 90's and 2000's. The privates we went to were still in the $40K range.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

You missed the point of the PP above you.

Where do (or will) the kids of your contractor buddy and plumber go to college? Will these wealthy parents be advising them to skip the pricy 4-year degree?

[Anonymous]

Don’t know about this guy’s health, but it certainly shows where there’s a will there’s a way

A California man saved enough money to pay off his student loans and buy a house by eating nearly every meal at Six Flags Magic Mountain for 7 years.

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/man-spent-150-yearly-on-six-flags-food-paid-off-student-debt/amp/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What gets me about this conversation is that everyone whining about the inadequacy of state universities assumes that their kid was going to get into MIT in the first place. And then they compare their career outlook to “the vast majority of plumbers.” When talking about trades, we’re not pushing that for the Intel finalist. However, there is, in fact, a layer of lower-performing kids for whom college is probably not very beneficial, if at all. The ROI on sending those kids to an $80,000 a year college just isn’t there. If a parent has the money, and wants to spend it, that’s their call. However, it makes zero sense to spend taxpayer dollars to subsidize that. That’s why countries that have “free” college tuition have a much lower college attendance rate than the US, and a much more competitive process to get in.

If your kid is that smart and motivated, they’re going to do well in life, whether they go to George Mason or MIT. In fact, there is data on this very issue. Smart, motivated kids from MC/UMC educated families don’t get any career boost from attending an “elite” college (smart, motivated kids from poor families do, which is why giving them financial aid makes sense).

Countries with "free" college don't have the private system we have and many kids get shut out of college which is why their parents who can afford it send them here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t know about this guy’s health, but it certainly shows where there’s a will there’s a way

A California man saved enough money to pay off his student loans and buy a house by eating nearly every meal at Six Flags Magic Mountain for 7 years.

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/man-spent-150-yearly-on-six-flags-food-paid-off-student-debt/amp/

That was brilliant.