Cost of attendance? Wow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS is starting to think of colleges (he's fifteen) and I was casually browsing some of the smaller, private schools-- the cost of these places is insane. Yes, we're realistic (529 plan and know that college is expensive). It just struck me that there are so *many* extremely expensive colleges, and most of them I've never heard of or wouldn't think twice about if I saw them on a resume.
I'm not trying to stir a fight-- I know that colleges are a lot about fit, and maybe these places offer something extraordinary, but many seem like rich people schools-- one said they basically cavort in LL Bean and music is a top major-- cost of attendance $80,000. SMH.

I'm middle-aged and one of the SLACs I considered in the early 90s was $26k a year (including room and board), so just over $100K for four years. At the time, it was the second most expensive private college in the country. The exponential rate of college pricing is disgraceful, and tied heavily into the behemoth student loan industry.

This! We need to cut off the loans. Tuition would follow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most (all?) “developed countries” have very different higher education systems. In Europe and the UK, the educational systems are generally set up to be a long process to weed out all but the most highly qualified students, and if you get off track early because you’re a late bloomer or have learning disabilities or don’t have a supportive home environment, that’s just too bad for you. Most Asian countries take that to a whole new level. Then the colleges themselves continue the process. These countries have lower levels of college graduates, and almost nothing of the support systems to get and keep disadvantaged students in the system. There was a discussion of this on another thread, but most don’t seem to realize that the enormous growth in support services provided by today’s universities cost money. Yes, new buildings etc are part of the cost, but the freely available tutoring and writing centers, counseling, etc etc that schools provide now is definitely a part of the increase in “admin” costs. When I was in college, your advisor might meet with you once a year, but other than that, you were on your own.

I have issues with the “everyone needs to go to college” mentality, but this country has made a decision that increasing access to college is a good thing. The result is a range of colleges, from relatively inexpensive state colleges to state flagships to private institutions. And guess what? If your kid is so smart and accomplished that they would have been able to attend college in say, Germany, then they will probably attract enough merit aid to attend college in the US for a minimal amount of $$.

Sort of. It's true that education systems in all countries have some inequities and winners and losers. Upward mobility is challenging pretty much everywhere, including in the US, these days.

The primary difference at this stage, though, is that debt is viewed as inevitable for even middle class families in the US in order for their children to achieve a level of education necessary to remain in the middle class. That's simply not true in most other developed nations. In the US, we've raised barriers to entry for many careers at the same time that costs of higher education have risen exponentially. Throw in the massive growth in for profit colleges, which can be incredibly exploitative, and it's an untenable situation.

In Germany or France or the UK, you might be blocked from an elite education very early in life. So if your dream is to be an academic or a lawyer or something, you may simply never have the opportunity. There are inherent problems in this.

On the other hand, if you want to be a teacher or a physical therapist, you will be able to obtain your degree and necessary training without borrowing any money. Plus these countries offer some form of socialized medicine so you will not have to worry about access to basic healthcare while in school, even if making a mid-career change (in fact these countries have extensive supports for people to get re-trained in new careers after getting laid off, for instance). There are also considerably more supports for subsidizing housing, family leave, and childcare.

So it's possible to just be a middle class person in these countries and have a decent quality of life, be able to live relatively close to where you work, have kids without worrying how you will afford to do so, be able to take time off to care for your newborn or an ailing family member, access to quality healthcare, etc. And, if you have kids, you don't have to begin saving for a college education the moment the child is born (while also paying astronomical rates for private childcare, after returning to work just weeks after giving birth).

See how it all works together? Increasing, people in the US are looking at the promise of elite education and realizing it's not worth it. Sure, if you get good grades and work hard and are willing to take on debt, you can get a very good education from a high quality school, and major in whatever you want. And then you will spend the next 5-20 years paying off the cost of that education, while working jobs that have nothing to do with your major, in cities with skyrocketing housing costs, while desperately clinging to any job that will provide you with health insurance, and never buying a home or having kids because where the hell is that money going to come from? It's a broken system that really only serves a tiny group of people at the top while everyone else just lives in a permanent state of debt for their entire adult lives, praying that a medical emergency or job loss doesn't push them over the edge.

I will take Option B, thanks.

This is such a DC bubble take on the world. You believe the only two paths in life are college or poverty. Believe it or not, it is possible to have a decent middle class quality of life in the US without going to college. I know lots of people who are doing that, as we speak. You need to get out more.

There reality is that a serious shortage of people to work in trades in the US — qualified pipe fitters, truck drivers, electricians — all make good money with good benefits. The Unions will often provide free training to anyone who can do basic math and stay off drugs. However, US policymakers and politicians decided to convince people that they are a loser if they don’t go to college. You’re right that people are beginning to wake up, but it took a significant portion of an entire generation incurring college debt that they couldn’t repay for essentially worthless college degrees. Now, there are many (on this board) who think the answer is that the government (our taxes) should pay for those worthless college degrees. Meanwhile, the Port of LA is completely choked with goods that can’t get to market because we don’t have people who will take a job making $70,000 a year that requires 7 weeks of training. If they save up and buy their own $160,000-$250,000 truck, an owner operator can make $350,000 or more a year. Instead we have people with $360,000 liberal arts degrees working for $15 an hour at Starbucks.

Until Google or Tesla drive them to bankrupcy like Uber did to NYC cabbies. Blue collar jobs are less resilient to change as white collar jobs.

[Anonymous]

OP here-- my thoughts from reading all of this...wealthier families are justifying these costs, or massive student loans are being taken out by the unwary, so it will continue.

To address one comment, I worked at a university in a past life, administrators (except maybe coaching staff) are not overcompensated-- in public colleges especially, there are soooo many rules to follow, so many demands to meet, that overhead is heavy by necessity...and during my day, it still wasn't nearly enough. That does complicate the "college is too expensive" argument, I agree.

[Anonymous]

I think it's sinful how kids feel forced to take on insane debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most (all?) “developed countries” have very different higher education systems. In Europe and the UK, the educational systems are generally set up to be a long process to weed out all but the most highly qualified students, and if you get off track early because you’re a late bloomer or have learning disabilities or don’t have a supportive home environment, that’s just too bad for you. Most Asian countries take that to a whole new level. Then the colleges themselves continue the process. These countries have lower levels of college graduates, and almost nothing of the support systems to get and keep disadvantaged students in the system. There was a discussion of this on another thread, but most don’t seem to realize that the enormous growth in support services provided by today’s universities cost money. Yes, new buildings etc are part of the cost, but the freely available tutoring and writing centers, counseling, etc etc that schools provide now is definitely a part of the increase in “admin” costs. When I was in college, your advisor might meet with you once a year, but other than that, you were on your own.

I have issues with the “everyone needs to go to college” mentality, but this country has made a decision that increasing access to college is a good thing. The result is a range of colleges, from relatively inexpensive state colleges to state flagships to private institutions. And guess what? If your kid is so smart and accomplished that they would have been able to attend college in say, Germany, then they will probably attract enough merit aid to attend college in the US for a minimal amount of $$.

Sort of. It's true that education systems in all countries have some inequities and winners and losers. Upward mobility is challenging pretty much everywhere, including in the US, these days.

The primary difference at this stage, though, is that debt is viewed as inevitable for even middle class families in the US in order for their children to achieve a level of education necessary to remain in the middle class. That's simply not true in most other developed nations. In the US, we've raised barriers to entry for many careers at the same time that costs of higher education have risen exponentially. Throw in the massive growth in for profit colleges, which can be incredibly exploitative, and it's an untenable situation.

In Germany or France or the UK, you might be blocked from an elite education very early in life. So if your dream is to be an academic or a lawyer or something, you may simply never have the opportunity. There are inherent problems in this.

On the other hand, if you want to be a teacher or a physical therapist, you will be able to obtain your degree and necessary training without borrowing any money. Plus these countries offer some form of socialized medicine so you will not have to worry about access to basic healthcare while in school, even if making a mid-career change (in fact these countries have extensive supports for people to get re-trained in new careers after getting laid off, for instance). There are also considerably more supports for subsidizing housing, family leave, and childcare.

So it's possible to just be a middle class person in these countries and have a decent quality of life, be able to live relatively close to where you work, have kids without worrying how you will afford to do so, be able to take time off to care for your newborn or an ailing family member, access to quality healthcare, etc. And, if you have kids, you don't have to begin saving for a college education the moment the child is born (while also paying astronomical rates for private childcare, after returning to work just weeks after giving birth).

See how it all works together? Increasing, people in the US are looking at the promise of elite education and realizing it's not worth it. Sure, if you get good grades and work hard and are willing to take on debt, you can get a very good education from a high quality school, and major in whatever you want. And then you will spend the next 5-20 years paying off the cost of that education, while working jobs that have nothing to do with your major, in cities with skyrocketing housing costs, while desperately clinging to any job that will provide you with health insurance, and never buying a home or having kids because where the hell is that money going to come from? It's a broken system that really only serves a tiny group of people at the top while everyone else just lives in a permanent state of debt for their entire adult lives, praying that a medical emergency or job loss doesn't push them over the edge.

I will take Option B, thanks.

This is such a DC bubble take on the world. You believe the only two paths in life are college or poverty. Believe it or not, it is possible to have a decent middle class quality of life in the US without going to college. I know lots of people who are doing that, as we speak. You need to get out more.

There reality is that a serious shortage of people to work in trades in the US — qualified pipe fitters, truck drivers, electricians — all make good money with good benefits. The Unions will often provide free training to anyone who can do basic math and stay off drugs. However, US policymakers and politicians decided to convince people that they are a loser if they don’t go to college. You’re right that people are beginning to wake up, but it took a significant portion of an entire generation incurring college debt that they couldn’t repay for essentially worthless college degrees. Now, there are many (on this board) who think the answer is that the government (our taxes) should pay for those worthless college degrees. Meanwhile, the Port of LA is completely choked with goods that can’t get to market because we don’t have people who will take a job making $70,000 a year that requires 7 weeks of training. If they save up and buy their own $160,000-$250,000 truck, an owner operator can make $350,000 or more a year. Instead we have people with $360,000 liberal arts degrees working for $15 an hour at Starbucks.

Until Google or Tesla drive them to bankrupcy like Uber did to NYC cabbies. Blue collar jobs are less resilient to change as white collar jobs.

I think plumbers will outlast radiologists personally since commuters are already better at certain diagnoses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's sinful how kids feel forced to take on insane debt.

What is the alternative?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS is starting to think of colleges (he's fifteen) and I was casually browsing some of the smaller, private schools-- the cost of these places is insane. Yes, we're realistic (529 plan and know that college is expensive). It just struck me that there are so *many* extremely expensive colleges, and most of them I've never heard of or wouldn't think twice about if I saw them on a resume.
I'm not trying to stir a fight-- I know that colleges are a lot about fit, and maybe these places offer something extraordinary, but many seem like rich people schools-- one said they basically cavort in LL Bean and music is a top major-- cost of attendance $80,000. SMH.

I'm middle-aged and one of the SLACs I considered in the early 90s was $26k a year (including room and board), so just over $100K for four years. At the time, it was the second most expensive private college in the country. The exponential rate of college pricing is disgraceful, and tied heavily into the behemoth student loan industry.

This! We need to cut off the loans. Tuition would follow.

Or just cap tuition as a condition of being eligible for federal loans. You can extend it to federal research grant money if school stop accepting loans.

[Anonymous]

My kids are keenly aware that most colleges are strictly off the table due to cost, including my alma mater (Carnegie Mellon). It makes me a little sad but that's the way things are. There are lots of good options.

[Anonymous]

Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's sinful how kids feel forced to take on insane debt.

What is the alternative?

Go to community college, then an automatic-entry state school. That path may or may not be appropriate for a given student.

The other alternative: Be born into wealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's sinful how kids feel forced to take on insane debt.

They have other options. They choose it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every think-tank type hand wringing over this is from the educated rich that wants the poor to skip this process and go become a plumber or truck driver or whatever. They do not/will not do that for their kids. Beware!

College, esp. top college, is still the path to riches. Think 30-40 years of working. One simple accident, health issue could easily derail your blue collar job. Try crawling up the attic when you are 50!

Where did your children attend college should be the first question to anyone pushing vocational school or community college as a viable alternative to a 4 year degree.

Disagree.

My contractor buddy (who manages his business but doesn’t actually get his hands dirty) owns a million dollar home plus a beach house and a lake house and a vacation home abroad. He didn’t go to college.

My plumber’s kids go to private school. He has a nicer house than we do. He also has a beach house, a boat, and a big house in Greece.

That is not typical and they are business owners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why there are constant articles and discussion about college costs. Most UMC folks are usually well aware of this.

OP here-- yes, as previously stated, we know college is expensive and will have enough for most (not all) schools if DS does his part to make good grades and be responsible. I was just surprised that there were so many expensive colleges and even the well regarded public schools are a lot (I think UMich was something like 69K per year once you factor living expenses). I don't know how people who aren't rich and don't qualify for financial aid afford anything except in-state-- even then, the cost has gone up a lot.

There is an expectation families save. I don't get those families living in expensive housing and comfortable lives complaining about college costs. We aren't high income and we managed to save. We live in a house most people here would not, very small and needs lots of work. It was the cheapest house we could find at the time. We drive our vehicles till they die and only take a vacation every few years at best. True middle class will qualify for financial aid. If you don't qualify, then except for some exceptions like health issues, special needs, having to care for family, etc. then you need to make an effort to save.

300k for undergrad is an insane expectation

I agree with both of you

Meh, I don't agree that people should be forced to live in a cheap, unmaintained home and give up some comforts, not in accordance with the salary that they work hard for, just to prop up salaries of college admins and the student loan industry. When the cost of school is outpacing incomes by as much as it is, there is a problem.

You don't think people should have to give up "comforts" that their salary would provide to pay for college? Excellent. I make $500k each year, and I do enjoy my comforts. I'd much rather take a couple extra ski trips than save for college. After all, they are the comforts my salary provides, and I work hard for it.

Idiotic.

Believe it or not, people in other developed countries don't scrimp and save for two decades to enable their kids to get university educations.

True story.

Most (all?) “developed countries” have very different higher education systems. In Europe and the UK, the educational systems are generally set up to be a long process to weed out all but the most highly qualified students, and if you get off track early because you’re a late bloomer or have learning disabilities or don’t have a supportive home environment, that’s just too bad for you. Most Asian countries take that to a whole new level. Then the colleges themselves continue the process. These countries have lower levels of college graduates, and almost nothing of the support systems to get and keep disadvantaged students in the system. There was a discussion of this on another thread, but most don’t seem to realize that the enormous growth in support services provided by today’s universities cost money. Yes, new buildings etc are part of the cost, but the freely available tutoring and writing centers, counseling, etc etc that schools provide now is definitely a part of the increase in “admin” costs. When I was in college, your advisor might meet with you once a year, but other than that, you were on your own.

I have issues with the “everyone needs to go to college” mentality, but this country has made a decision that increasing access to college is a good thing. The result is a range of colleges, from relatively inexpensive state colleges to state flagships to private institutions. And guess what? If your kid is so smart and accomplished that they would have been able to attend college in say, Germany, then they will probably attract enough merit aid to attend college in the US for a minimal amount of $$.

Here we weed out based on family wealth. It’s a much more American way of doing things

The ultra elite private colleges provide very generous financial aid and state colleges are very affordable. Tuition at Towson State is $10,000 a year. Your kid can live at home and go to the University of Maryland for less than $11,000 a year in state. Starting out at Community College and transferring to a four year college is even cheaper.

Oh, you’re too big of a snob to send your kid to Towson State? That’s your problem.

OMG, I am so sick of this trope. "Very generous financial aid" is meaningless for a family making even $250K if they have more than one kid and/or are older parents and/or at any point in time in the previous two decades suffered a setback of some kind making it difficult or impossible to save. (Daycare for 5+ years can be a setback, depending on where you live.)

RE Towson, it's not about snobbery. It's about an appropriate education for the particular student. I can assure you that an Intel finalist from TJ isn't going to find what they need at Towson.