H1b visas. Anyone else work in technology and see the issues with this program and outsourcing?

[Anonymous]

I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

[Anonymous]

Of course. I used to work for a software company that hired Southeast Asians through H1B mills. It's not that no Americans could do QA or whatever -- it's that the H1Bs would do it at half the price. They were nice people, but not brain trusts with unique training or skills.

[Anonymous]

The Trump administration is crippling the HB1 visa program by requiring employers to pay a $100,000 fee—most won’t do it. Isn’t that what you want? Fewer HB1 visas to go to foreigners?

H2B visas are another matter…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course. I used to work for a software company that hired Southeast Asians through H1B mills. It's not that no Americans could do QA or whatever -- it's that the H1Bs would do it at half the price. They were nice people, but not brain trusts with unique training or skills.

Exactly. This whole ‘well we have to hire them bc of their special skills’ is nonsense. Total nonsense.

I think average people think it’s a little slice of IT support or customer service, but it is almost all of the tech operations - which are layered and complicated- with the US based workers- often h1b- as vendor managers.

There is this entire huge shadow workforce abroad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Trump administration is crippling the HB1 visa program by requiring employers to pay a $100,000 fee—most won’t do it. Isn’t that what you want? Fewer HB1 visas to go to foreigners?

H2B visas are another matter…

Yes and no. I suspect it won’t fix the issue as co will offshore more and also hide their hiring behind vendor contracts.

Ex I am not going to hire an employee to do X Y Z in the US. Instead I’ll contract with A company (often an offshore company with a US registered entity) for projects that do XYZ and I can terminate my contract easily.

See how easy it is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

I think there is much more nuance than you say but I completely agree with what you say about training. But to your frustration at being called xenophobic...

Historically, H-1B program has had strong support from the businesses and corporations looking for less expensive labor. We are talking Republicans or Democrats, but certainly the majority of the Republican establishment. The program was opposed by labor oriented Democrats, concerned with protecting domestic workers getting hurt by foreign labor. Trump upended the world so that MAGA now hates immigrants more than it loves big business (except for the billionaires whom Trump helps in so many other ways that it renders such details irrelevant).

In sum, of course H1B was always considered GOOD for business, not great for the American worker. This isn't new. As a lifelong democrat I am more than fine prioritizing the worker over the interests of the big business. HOWEVER, when Trump imbues everything with anti-immigrant rhetoric, he alienates the people who would otherwise support this move. In other words, when you are so full of racism and hatred people don't support you even when you occasionally have a reasonable idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

Off shoring is the issue you are really talking about. Having H1Bs or US citizens managing the off shoring doesn’t really result in many more jobs for American students. It’s that entry level jobs are much cheaper off shore. And may be even more affected by AI.

[Anonymous]

What an original thread, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

Off shoring is the issue you are really talking about. Having H1Bs or US citizens managing the off shoring doesn’t really result in many more jobs for American students. It’s that entry level jobs are much cheaper off shore. And may be even more affected by AI.

You don’t work in tech, do you?

No it is both h1b and off shoring. And it is not just low level or ‘entry level’ jobs. Not even close. But AI in tech has been a huge thing for well over a decade now.

This is my point, it is a much bigger issue than people realize. H1b is part of the problem. There is no reason to invest in US workers to build the skills needed to supervise those off shore operations- which btw are not just entry level jobs anymore- when they can just hire an h1b who they can control more easily by virtue of the visa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve tried to explain it to my friends - it really is damaging to US workers - and they all think I’m xenophobic.

Pretty much every major US company spends tons and tons on technology- more than the average person probably realizes because it’s not obvious how complicated back end tech stacks have become- and most of those people (often through foreign companies with a small US footprint) are offshore around the world with a small US based team that is often 50%+ foreign too because of h1b visas. I see it every day, and I see how carefully companies set things up so the extent of it is not obvious.

I am not anti immigrant. But when I hear of US kids spending 400k on college degrees and then struggling to find work, it bothers me.

Companies do not train people, there seems to be zero incentive. Why?

I think there is much more nuance than you say but I completely agree with what you say about training. But to your frustration at being called xenophobic...

Historically, H-1B program has had strong support from the businesses and corporations looking for less expensive labor. We are talking Republicans or Democrats, but certainly the majority of the Republican establishment. The program was opposed by labor oriented Democrats, concerned with protecting domestic workers getting hurt by foreign labor. Trump upended the world so that MAGA now hates immigrants more than it loves big business (except for the billionaires whom Trump helps in so many other ways that it renders such details irrelevant).

In sum, of course H1B was always considered GOOD for business, not great for the American worker. This isn't new. As a lifelong democrat I am more than fine prioritizing the worker over the interests of the big business. HOWEVER, when Trump imbues everything with anti-immigrant rhetoric, he alienates the people who would otherwise support this move. In other words, when you are so full of racism and hatred people don't support you even when you occasionally have a reasonable idea.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said but I guess my point is that it is a bigger issue than I think most people realize. One of my friends argued that she works with non Americans and ‘they bring so much to the table, culture’ etc, and Americans need to ‘build their skills’ up if they want to stay relevant, etc. and I was trying to point out to her that in her particular industry- which has all sorts of built in regulations and defenses against foreign labor- non Us citizens make up maybe 5% of the work force. But in my tech world, it is easily 70%+ and the Americans being replaced would be happy to ‘build their skills’ but there is almost no opportunity.

[Anonymous]

^ there is this mindset that Americans are lazy and the overseas people are smarter and more hard working and that is not the case

[Anonymous]

It's a mix bag. Half of H1B are brilliant and hard working and we are lucky to poach them while other half are just average, desperate and cheap. We need to make sure we are getting the top half.

We also need to make sure that by ending visas and asking high pay for locals, we aren't pushing jobs overseas. We need to keep jobs here and educate and train locals to handle them at sustainable salaries for both employers and employees. We need to keep embracing top talent from overseas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. I used to work for a software company that hired Southeast Asians through H1B mills. It's not that no Americans could do QA or whatever -- it's that the H1Bs would do it at half the price. They were nice people, but not brain trusts with unique training or skills.

Exactly. This whole ‘well we have to hire them bc of their special skills’ is nonsense. Total nonsense.

I think average people think it’s a little slice of IT support or customer service, but it is almost all of the tech operations - which are layered and complicated- with the US based workers- often h1b- as vendor managers.

There is this entire huge shadow workforce abroad.

Then MAGA should boycott Amazon. And Walmart. And Oracle. And Google. And Meta.

Ya know, the oligarchs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. I used to work for a software company that hired Southeast Asians through H1B mills. It's not that no Americans could do QA or whatever -- it's that the H1Bs would do it at half the price. They were nice people, but not brain trusts with unique training or skills.

Exactly. This whole ‘well we have to hire them bc of their special skills’ is nonsense. Total nonsense.

I think average people think it’s a little slice of IT support or customer service, but it is almost all of the tech operations - which are layered and complicated- with the US based workers- often h1b- as vendor managers.

There is this entire huge shadow workforce abroad.

Then MAGA should boycott Amazon. And Walmart. And Oracle. And Google. And Meta.

Ya know, the oligarchs.

Sigh, tired of splaining it to ya. There are precious few options for reducing H-1B or at least improving the way it works that aren't named Trump. Vance is on the horizon. Vance made his position clear.

The tech companies are a recent thing they know Trump has them over a barrel, because the Democratic platform collapsed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a mix bag. Half of H1B are brilliant and hard working and we are lucky to poach them while other half are just average, desperate and cheap. We need to make sure we are getting the top half.

We also need to make sure that by ending visas and asking high pay for locals, we aren't pushing jobs overseas. We need to keep jobs here and educate and train locals to handle them at sustainable salaries for both employers and employees. We need to keep embracing top talent from overseas.

IME this isn’t really accurate. I don’t see any particular brilliance nor do I see desperate and cheap. It’s mostly average. If students don’t have the right skills coming out of US colleges, we need to fix that and build more pipelines, and we need to ensure higher education isn’t prohibitively expensive.

And I agree, we don’t want to push more overseas but it’s already happening, far beyond the entry level or IT or customer support roles most people think of. And far more than can easily be counted even if your looking for it, bc so many of these workers are off balance sheet, and hidden behind vendor co relationships.

Anyway, rant over. It just scares me that my ‘liberal’ friends think the visa programs are needed and to argue otherwise is somehow MAGA