Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

It seems like you need to find a college for your kid that aligns with those views. Good luck

Seems like you have no argument against what I stated, that these institutions are primarily about education and academia, and therefore, it makes sense to use some academic metric when looking at admissions. Otherwise, why would they still want to see the GPA? Why not just go with an essay, and extra curricular, all non academic activities of colleges here are "much about the outside the classroom aspects "?

BTW, are you assuming I am not an American, educated in the US?

They aren't primarily about academia. If you look at what they say, it's usually some version of creating/moulding better leaders/citizens

Why are you making up total bullcrap LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University

"University (from Latin universitas 'a whole') is an institution of higher (or tertiary) education and research which awards academic degrees in several academic disciplines."

Harvards mission statement: The mission of Harvard College is to educate the citizens and citizen-leaders for our society.

Unc’s mission statement: We embrace an unwavering commitment to excellence as one of the world's great research universities. Our mission is to serve as a center for research, scholarship, and creativity and to teach a diverse community of undergraduate, graduate, and professional students to become the next generation of leaders.

Sorry it's not the marketting slogans that determine what they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

+1 math is math. It's a universal language. The answer is either right or wrong. At some point, you need the right answer and not just "explain your thinking". Whether it's the SAT, ACT or AP calc, there needs to be some indication that you can get the right answer. Grading is too subject, and over inflated. Standardized test scores is the great equalizer in terms comparing math skills from people all over the world.

This is true. Students will struggle in engineering, science, business if they don’t have adequate math skills. GRE quantitative scores have to be almost perfect to get into top grad schools in STEM. If you can’t do the math, you can’t do the science etc. Very limiting.

This is why K-12 needs vast improvements, especially in math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

+1 math is math. It's a universal language. The answer is either right or wrong. At some point, you need the right answer and not just "explain your thinking". Whether it's the SAT, ACT or AP calc, there needs to be some indication that you can get the right answer. Grading is too subject, and over inflated. Standardized test scores is the great equalizer in terms comparing math skills from people all over the world.

This is true. Students will struggle in engineering, science, business if they don’t have adequate math skills. GRE quantitative scores have to be almost perfect to get into top grad schools in STEM. If you can’t do the math, you can’t do the science etc. Very limiting.

This is why K-12 needs vast improvements, especially in math.

Exactly, additionally for non STEM types it teaches discipline and methodical skills that can be useful to problem solving problems in your daily life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

The best independents are dropping AP classes because it leads to teaching to the test or some other excuse. If you pull all objective measures, schools will have to fall back on admitting the bulk of students who do well at schools that the colleges are already familiar with and then filling out classes with students from unknown schools and hoping. That situation works out really well if you attend an elite private school, and not so well if you attend a public school that doesn't regularly send graduates out of state or to top schools.

And this is what those institutions did way back to exclude Jews. We've come full circle.

Please stop trying to get us to believe Asians are the new Jews in terms of discrimination. You're being ridiculous.

They didn't exclude Jews. They instituted measures to keep the number of Jews from getting too high, such as geographic diversity.

It was "holistic" admissions, and this is when they also started using recommendation letters and legacy. It worked. It kept the number of Jews limited to what they deemed "diverse" enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

[Anonymous]

The statistics are striking: Though African immigrants, many of them from Nigeria and Ghana, make up less than 1 percent of America's total population, first- and second-generation black immigrants comprise 41 percent of all black students at Ivy League schools, according to 2007 research from teams at Princeton and Penn.

https://www.jbhe.com/news_views/52_harvard-blackstudents.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.good.is/amp/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity-2639585491


Why bonus points for rich Black immigrants from Nigeria and Ghana

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

It seems like you need to find a college for your kid that aligns with those views. Good luck

Seems like you have no argument against what I stated, that these institutions are primarily about education and academia, and therefore, it makes sense to use some academic metric when looking at admissions. Otherwise, why would they still want to see the GPA? Why not just go with an essay, and extra curricular, all non academic activities of colleges here are "much about the outside the classroom aspects "?

BTW, are you assuming I am not an American, educated in the US?

They aren't primarily about academia. If you look at what they say, it's usually some version of creating/moulding better leaders/citizens

Why are you making up total bullcrap LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University

"University (from Latin universitas 'a whole') is an institution of higher (or tertiary) education and research which awards academic degrees in several academic disciplines."

Harvards mission statement: The mission of Harvard College is to educate the citizens and citizen-leaders for our society.

Unc’s mission statement: We embrace an unwavering commitment to excellence as one of the world's great research universities. Our mission is to serve as a center for research, scholarship, and creativity and to teach a diverse community of undergraduate, graduate, and professional students to become the next generation of leaders.

Sorry it's not the marketting slogans that determine what they are.

The IRS and DoE determines if they are an educational institution or simply a research one. Both Harvard and UNC are educational institutions, therefore, their mission is to educate, and the rest is a byproduct.

The "teaching and experience outside the classroom" is also like a marketing slogan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

+1 That's what K-12 additional funding is about, which most people have no problems with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The statistics are striking: Though African immigrants, many of them from Nigeria and Ghana, make up less than 1 percent of America's total population, first- and second-generation black immigrants comprise 41 percent of all black students at Ivy League schools, according to 2007 research from teams at Princeton and Penn.

https://www.jbhe.com/news_views/52_harvard-blackstudents.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.good.is/amp/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity-2639585491


Why bonus points for rich Black immigrants from Nigeria and Ghana

Because ADOS don’t double-count as URM/int’l for Ivy self-congratulatory purposes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hope that the downfall of AA will support the current shift in enrollment from white institutions to HBCUs. Black students have options (formed by necessity) so they will be fine.

I thought diversity was important.
Why would you go to a school with 80+% of the same race.

Important to who? It's not at all important to me. I get nothing out of it. In fact it imposes significant costs on me.

I would go to school "with 80+% of the same race" because school is about learning not about being around other races.

Yes, school is about learning, but much of the learning that school is about takes place outside of the classroom. Students learn a lot from their fellow students; they learn many things that will be important to take forward into their adult lives.

College admissions officers know this. That is why they want to put together diverse classes where all the students can learn different lessons from each other.

Nebulous concept.
Please share the long-term studies with statistics (GPA, GRE/LSAT/MCAT scores, postgraduate study acceptance rates, graduation rates, avg starting salaries, etc.) proving "diverse" classes foster a climate of success for ALL students.

Why not provide a study that shows it doesn’t?

+1 Anyone who's attended college in this country and has an open mind knows that we all benefit from learning in a diverse environment. Those who've gone in other countries where 95%+ of the students are of one race have no clue what the value is.

Where’s the data? Where are the studies? Explain the “value” to the successful STEM students in the PRC who end up here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.