Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

The North Carolina portion of the case is the much more important part. State schools don't have the resources to carefully curate a class- they have to be formulaic. Eliminating race from the formula will change the composition of the student body. Cal is just now getting back to where they were prior to AA being banned in California and they are spending a fortune to get there. States where it is banned that haven't gone that route have see African American enrollment plummet. Do you really think the NC legislature will let UNC do the spend? What about Wisconsin or Ohio?

Good point/ questions.

UNC which was founded in 1789 didn't admit blacks at Chapel Hill until 1954 ( Brown vs Board of Education), so blacks were shut out for generations. Blacks are 22% of the North Carolina population, but are 8% of UNC Chapel Hill student population.

Ohio black population to Ohio State is 12% vs 7%.

The University of Wisconsin' s black percentage has consistently been below 3% for years.

The numbers will probably drop 2 percent or so. Wisconsin numbers are already pretty low.

I think UVA will drop a little.

However, I think a school like UMD College Park will maintain its diversity numbers, particularly for blacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

The best independents are dropping AP classes because it leads to teaching to the test or some other excuse. If you pull all objective measures, schools will have to fall back on admitting the bulk of students who do well at schools that the colleges are already familiar with and then filling out classes with students from unknown schools and hoping. That situation works out really well if you attend an elite private school, and not so well if you attend a public school that doesn't regularly send graduates out of state or to top schools.

And this is what those institutions did way back to exclude Jews. We've come full circle.

Please stop trying to get us to believe Asians are the new Jews in terms of discrimination. You're being ridiculous.

They didn't exclude Jews. They instituted measures to keep the number of Jews from getting too high, such as geographic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

The North Carolina portion of the case is the much more important part. State schools don't have the resources to carefully curate a class- they have to be formulaic. Eliminating race from the formula will change the composition of the student body. Cal is just now getting back to where they were prior to AA being banned in California and they are spending a fortune to get there. States where it is banned that haven't gone that route have see African American enrollment plummet. Do you really think the NC legislature will let UNC do the spend? What about Wisconsin or Ohio?

Good point/ questions.

UNC which was founded in 1789 didn't admit blacks at Chapel Hill until 1954 ( Brown vs Board of Education), so blacks were shut out for generations. Blacks are 22% of the North Carolina population, but are 8% of UNC Chapel Hill student population.

Ohio black population to Ohio State is 12% vs 7%.

The University of Wisconsin' s black percentage has consistently been below 3% for years.

The numbers will probably drop 2 percent or so. Wisconsin numbers are already pretty low.

I think UVA will drop a little.

However, I think a school like UMD College Park will maintain its diversity numbers, particularly for blacks.

This might raise other issues. If, like 40 years ago, particularly in states with large minority populations, minority tax payers are supporting state universities that enroll only tiny numbers of minority students, would that be grounds for a class action suit?
I’m not asking how the current Supreme Court might handle it — just if there would be grounds.
I’m thinking about UNC Chapel Hill. I’m also wondering if a good counter argument would be that other UNC schools are available and students who want spots will get them somewhere in the UNC system.

I grew up in DC and went to college out of state — so I’m not familiar with the ways that state systems of higher education work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

The best independents are dropping AP classes because it leads to teaching to the test or some other excuse. If you pull all objective measures, schools will have to fall back on admitting the bulk of students who do well at schools that the colleges are already familiar with and then filling out classes with students from unknown schools and hoping. That situation works out really well if you attend an elite private school, and not so well if you attend a public school that doesn't regularly send graduates out of state or to top schools.

And this is what those institutions did way back to exclude Jews. We've come full circle.

Please stop trying to get us to believe Asians are the new Jews in terms of discrimination. You're being ridiculous.

In terms of college admission, looks exactly the same way what colleges did to Jews to bring down number of Jews in colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

If they judge in favor of your liking = legit
If they judge against your liking = bad

And then these same people also make fun of Trump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

If they judge in favor of your liking = legit
If they judge against your liking = bad

And then these same people also make fun of Trump.

No, an illegitimate court is illegitimate court. Rulings won’t be taken seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

If they judge in favor of your liking = legit
If they judge against your liking = bad

And then these same people also make fun of Trump.

No, an illegitimate court is illegitimate court. Rulings won’t be taken seriously.

Who made you judge of that? Your mom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

If they judge in favor of your liking = legit
If they judge against your liking = bad

And then these same people also make fun of Trump.

So what were the judges during separate but equal? legit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

The North Carolina portion of the case is the much more important part. State schools don't have the resources to carefully curate a class- they have to be formulaic. Eliminating race from the formula will change the composition of the student body. Cal is just now getting back to where they were prior to AA being banned in California and they are spending a fortune to get there. States where it is banned that haven't gone that route have see African American enrollment plummet. Do you really think the NC legislature will let UNC do the spend? What about Wisconsin or Ohio?

Good point/ questions.

UNC which was founded in 1789 didn't admit blacks at Chapel Hill until 1954 ( Brown vs Board of Education), so blacks were shut out for generations. Blacks are 22% of the North Carolina population, but are 8% of UNC Chapel Hill student population.

Ohio black population to Ohio State is 12% vs 7%.

The University of Wisconsin' s black percentage has consistently been below 3% for years.

The numbers will probably drop 2 percent or so. Wisconsin numbers are already pretty low.

I think UVA will drop a little.

However, I think a school like UMD College Park will maintain its diversity numbers, particularly for blacks.

This might raise other issues. If, like 40 years ago, particularly in states with large minority populations, minority tax payers are supporting state universities that enroll only tiny numbers of minority students, would that be grounds for a class action suit?
I’m not asking how the current Supreme Court might handle it — just if there would be grounds.
I’m thinking about UNC Chapel Hill. I’m also wondering if a good counter argument would be that other UNC schools are available and students who want spots will get them somewhere in the UNC system.

I grew up in DC and went to college out of state — so I’m not familiar with the ways that state systems of higher education work.

So you want to add up the taxes paid and see the proportion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

The college isn't 'teaching' anything. They lay the groundwork by providing a diverse community, and it happens organically. You can get the in-the-classroom learning elsewhere, too, but there's significant advantage to having learned things both in and out of the classroom before going into the workplace. Employers don't want people coming in fresh from college who don't have any clue how to interact with different kinds of people and situations.

Diversity is a good thing for colleges but not a must thing to violate the Constitution of the US. Academia is a must thing.

Selecting for diversity does not violate the Constitution. Excluding in order to NOT be diverse is. If AA is disallowed in college admissions, colleges will continue to seek out people from all backgrounds (sans quotas), someone will probably sue because they think they're missing out, and they'll lose.

You and I are not Supreme Court judges, so we'll see about that.

Too bad we don’t have a legit SCOTUS who will rule on this.

If they judge in favor of your liking = legit
If they judge against your liking = bad

And then these same people also make fun of Trump.

So what were the judges during separate but equal? legit?

So what were the judges during discrimnation against Asians? legit?

[Anonymous]